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Collapse OS

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Re: Collapse OS

#61

Post by GhettoMaestro »

bcaa7f3a8bbc wrote: post #54

I don't think just developing a Z80 operating system is enough. The whole ecosystem needs to be preserved. In agriculture, we have the doomsday seed vault [0] just for this purpose. If we anticipate collapse of the current economic system or society, I think we should build a doomsday computer vault, that keeps everything we need to rebuild the computing industry in a underground bunker. It keeps everything we need i…

I like the idea. But I ask (not being annoying), do we really need it? Seems like having all of that more distributed in the hands of users would be a better protection against unavailability.

Re: Collapse OS

#62

Post by SwellJoe »

jolmg wrote: post #57
SwellJoe wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's extremely common, even today, though probably not the processor I would pick (I think 68000 family, perhaps?), but it's probably a reasonable choice. You're going to be able to find it embedded in literally millions of devices and it's simple enough for one person to build a computer around it. I suspect the argument against modern Intel chips is just their complexity. They need an incredibly complicated and som…

> I suspect the argument against modern Intel chips is just their complexity. Well that, and the fact that we already have plenty of OSes to run on x86(-64). Looking at arch/ in linux's source: alpha avr32 frv Kconfig microblaze openrisc score um arc blackfin h8300 m32r mips parisc sh unicore32 arm c6x hexagon m68k mn10300 powerpc sparc x86 arm64 cris ia64 metag nios2 s390 tile xtensa I'm surprised that it doesn't ha…

No 6502, either. There aren't many 8 bit CPUs that are considered a reasonable platform for any UNIX. Which is why I think I'd prefer 68000 family. It's "modern enough" to use with modern compilers and operating systems, but simple enough for a one man garage shop to build/maintain a computer that uses it. I guess earlier 80x86 chips could fit that bill, too, but 68000 has a better assembly language.

Re: Collapse OS

#63

Post by mathgeek »

GhettoMaestro wrote: post #61
bcaa7f3a8bbc wrote: post #54

I don't think just developing a Z80 operating system is enough. The whole ecosystem needs to be preserved. In agriculture, we have the doomsday seed vault [0] just for this purpose. If we anticipate collapse of the current economic system or society, I think we should build a doomsday computer vault, that keeps everything we need to rebuild the computing industry in a underground bunker. It keeps everything we need i…

I like the idea. But I ask (not being annoying), do we really need it? Seems like having all of that more distributed in the hands of users would be a better protection against unavailability.

Usually the idea behind a doomsday vault is that you're keeping everything securely in one place in case there is widespread disaster that sufficiently wipes out the distributed knowledge. They're not mutually exclusive.

Re: Collapse OS

#64

Post by skykooler »

jolmg wrote: post #57
SwellJoe wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's extremely common, even today, though probably not the processor I would pick (I think 68000 family, perhaps?), but it's probably a reasonable choice. You're going to be able to find it embedded in literally millions of devices and it's simple enough for one person to build a computer around it. I suspect the argument against modern Intel chips is just their complexity. They need an incredibly complicated and som…

> I suspect the argument against modern Intel chips is just their complexity. Well that, and the fact that we already have plenty of OSes to run on x86(-64). Looking at arch/ in linux's source: alpha avr32 frv Kconfig microblaze openrisc score um arc blackfin h8300 m32r mips parisc sh unicore32 arm c6x hexagon m68k mn10300 powerpc sparc x86 arm64 cris ia64 metag nios2 s390 tile xtensa I'm surprised that it doesn't ha…

The Z80 can't run Linux due to the lack of an MMU. (Though it's possible to get around that through emulation: see http://dmitry.gr/?r=05.Projects&proj=07.%20Linux%20on%208bit for example.)

Re: Collapse OS

#65

Post by yellowapple »

mschaef wrote: post #56

In the event of a sufficiently large collapse, people will be so far down on Maslow's hierarchy of needs that an OS will be about the last thing on their minds.

The problem is that modern society - and the current size of the world's population - is dependent on a lot of programmable devices. For example: agriculture, where tractors and other farm machines nowadays have ECUs/ECMs (let alone even more programmable bits and pieces). Same for the vehicles used to actually transport food from farms to the rest of the world. There are plenty of other examples, too, like medical devices and water extraction and heating/cooling and other things that are nowadays the difference between life and death for a lot of people.

Sure, we were able to make do a century or so ago, but not with 8 billion people and counting. People will die without some way to keep the various microcontroller-driven systems up and running. It's a long shot that we'd be able to adequately replace a microcontroller in a tractor ECM or a pacemaker or an air conditioning system or a water pump, but a slim chance is better than no chance at all, and the latter is exactly what we'll have unless we're thinking about and testing out solutions now, while we still have the resources to easily do so.

Re: Collapse OS

#67

Post by scottlocklin »

jolmg wrote: post #57
SwellJoe wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's extremely common, even today, though probably not the processor I would pick (I think 68000 family, perhaps?), but it's probably a reasonable choice. You're going to be able to find it embedded in literally millions of devices and it's simple enough for one person to build a computer around it. I suspect the argument against modern Intel chips is just their complexity. They need an incredibly complicated and som…

> I suspect the argument against modern Intel chips is just their complexity. Well that, and the fact that we already have plenty of OSes to run on x86(-64). Looking at arch/ in linux's source: alpha avr32 frv Kconfig microblaze openrisc score um arc blackfin h8300 m32r mips parisc sh unicore32 arm c6x hexagon m68k mn10300 powerpc sparc x86 arm64 cris ia64 metag nios2 s390 tile xtensa I'm surprised that it doesn't ha…

>I'm surprised that it doesn't have support for Z80 if it's so common.

That's because it's an 8 bit computer, my dude. Back in the old days, when "the internet" was still a military project, and you'd phone up your local BBS at 2400 baud on a POTS with suction cups; that's all the little people had access to as recently as the early 80s. And as other people said, there are apparently many of them around, and they run on shit power supplies.

It's a cool idea, but obviously it requires both cheap and dirty hardware implementations and a paper manual. Pretty sure "hacking" will be low on the hierarchy of needs in the event of apocalypse. Also pretty sure something like CP/M would be more useful. I know where there are CAMAC crates with Z80/CPM punched card/paper tape readers that would probably do great in a post apocalyptic environment.

http://www.cpm.z80.de/

Re: Collapse OS

#68

Post by gnopgnip »

SwellJoe wrote: post #26

I've been sort of half-assed working on a novel about a post-tech future (100+ years after apocalypse), where a handful of people retained some technology by virtue of having stored information about it in a manner that survived and a tradition of scavenging and trading and a sort of religion based on maintaining it in a working state. So, this is a fun read and thought experiment, even if an 8-bit computer is probab…

You can look at the proliferation of antiques for examples of this. Arguably many antiques are more fragile than a computer, and exist over a hundred years later in excellent condition either through careful planning or neglect and luck.

Re: Collapse OS

#69

Post by philsnow »

SwellJoe wrote: post #26

I've been sort of half-assed working on a novel about a post-tech future (100+ years after apocalypse), where a handful of people retained some technology by virtue of having stored information about it in a manner that survived and a tradition of scavenging and trading and a sort of religion based on maintaining it in a working state. So, this is a fun read and thought experiment, even if an 8-bit computer is probab…

This reminds me a bit of A Canticle for Liebowitz, which in turn reminds me to re-read it. Thank you.

Re: Collapse OS

#70

Post by GhettoMaestro »

rwmj wrote: post #48
SwellJoe wrote: post #26

I've been sort of half-assed working on a novel about a post-tech future (100+ years after apocalypse), where a handful of people retained some technology by virtue of having stored information about it in a manner that survived and a tradition of scavenging and trading and a sort of religion based on maintaining it in a working state. So, this is a fun read and thought experiment, even if an 8-bit computer is probab…

My novel idea (feel free to use it!) is about someone taking a 1980s computer back to the Second World War. It's used by the Allies to decrypt Ultra intelligence and is treated like a kind of holy relic - only a tiny set of "high priests" are allowed near it, fewer still can touch it, and because of its importance they go to extraordinary lengths to ensure it can never be damaged by anything from bombs to power glitc…

I would read this book. Fictional [alternative] history is always fun to read for me.
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