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Square Canada has a Cuban coffee issue

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Re: Square Canada has a Cuban coffee issue

#61

Post by goodcanadian »

azernik wrote: post #27
Canada wrote: post #12

They need to just give her the $14k immediately and then eat it if it's a problem. Stop processing the transactions going forward or until it's sorted out, but do not steal her money. Also, I found this distasteful: "I want to clarify that Square is not experiencing a technical glitch. While I cannot speak with you about Monica's individual case, I can tell you that Square's Customer Success team spoke with Monica ye…

If the question is legal liability for violating sanctions, releasing the $14K could put them on the hook for much more than $14K in liability.

Doesn't matter. She is doing business with Square Canada. If it comes to it, Canadian courts will find in her favour and the judgement will be enforced against Square Canada's assets.

Re: Square Canada has a Cuban coffee issue

#62

Post by alams »

US government and US payment companies like Visa and Mastercard complaining about India building its own payment processing systems (RuPay).

Countries who depends on US and its companies for technology are very much vulnerable to these type of bullying.

Countries need to look on bigger picture and develop self sustainable technology ventures and US should stop bullying countries with technology to retain the trust.

Re: Square Canada has a Cuban coffee issue

#63

Post by tareqak »

stouset wrote: post #58
tareqak wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By operating in Canada, Square Canada is subject to Canadian federal law: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-92-584/p... .

By being a US-based company, they are also subject to US law. If you believe you have a general solution to the problem of incompatible edge cases in international financial regulation, there are many, many companies who would be willing to make you a very rich person in exchange for that information.

I don’t have a solution for the general case. I do think I have a solution for the specific case: Mustelier would have to get a Canadian lawyer and sue for damages plus lawyer and court fees. Square Canada would settle for this amount and ask her to sign an NDA and offer extra for her to sign the NDA. Square Canada would write-off the settlement as a loss. Square Canada would forfeit the amount frozen by JP Morgan Chase.

Yes, this solution is probably still not good enough. Maybe Square Canada’s US parent would still have to pay a fine.

I understand the what US law will be broken if JP Morgan Chase releases the funds in that a U.S. entity would be party to a transaction involving Cuban goods. However, right now, said U.S. entity is effectively party to a theft involving Cuban goods and Canadian funds.

Re: Square Canada has a Cuban coffee issue

#64

Post by molteanu »

faramarz wrote: post #39

There is a bigger story here and I'm glad it's made visible to more of the general public, and I really hope more people listen intently; the underlying technology running your favorites apps are sitting on servers on US soil and prone to US laws. that needs to be a title of the next headline, especially for anyone installing apps under the disguise of "privacy".

Yes, that was made visible by the blocking of github accounts for developers in Iran, Syria and Crimea [1]. The US can disrupt whole businesses just by blocking access to fundamental services, tools or equipment. That's some nice political power right there. Free stuff is always a double-edged sword. You can't have free Google, free Youtube, free FB, free Github, free everything unless you also give back something. In this case, it limits the options of Nation States where most of its citizens use these free services on a daily basis. One wrong move, and the Government of said Nation State will have a nice (color?!) revolution on their back.

In the end, good for US for having the brains and the determination to build all these systems, conspicuously. I'm sure Russia does the same or is striving to do the same. Different methods, same desired outcomes. It will be interesting to see what China will have in store in the coming years.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20552797

Re: Square Canada has a Cuban coffee issue

#65

Post by 14 »

This is where it is too bad bitcoin did not become more mainstream allowing people to just exchange money without permission. But perhaps these are the incidences that will lead to the mainstream use of things like bitcoins.

Re: Square Canada has a Cuban coffee issue

#66

Post by azernik »

jpiasetz wrote: post #44
azernik wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the question is legal liability for violating sanctions, releasing the $14K could put them on the hook for much more than $14K in liability.

Not releasing can put them in violation of Canada's Foreign Extraterritorial Measures Act so they are between a rock and a hard place (particularly Foreign Extraterritorial Measures (United States) Order, 1992 https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-92-584/p... )

Oh ouch.

Re: Square Canada has a Cuban coffee issue

#67

Post by vkou »

vinay427 wrote: post #56
throwaway2048 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is illegal for a Canadian company, in Canada, to be subject to or comply with American extraterritoriality laws surrounding Cuba. https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-92-584/p...

I think the distinction of JPMorgan being the processor that denied the transactions is relevant here. IANAL but it's unclear to me that Square Canada is at fault for depending on a company that happens to comply with US laws.

If my bank took my money, and ran off with it, and then blamed it on bad behavior of some third party that I have nothing to do with, I have two things to say:

1. Not my problem.

2. Fuck you, pay me.

If they can't find counter-parties that let them do their jobs, they should not be in the business of payment processing. I don't get to pick which third parties my bank interfaces with.

Re: Square Canada has a Cuban coffee issue

#68

Post by Throwawaytrait »

If America is to deserve its own sovereignty, it must accept that of the rest of the world.

Cuba has never done anything wrong to the USA. Some old racist cowards embargoed Cuba 60 years ago for reasons that just don't fucking matter anymore.

It's 2019, it's time for Amerikkkans to stop attacking other nations with embargoes and sanctions because their culture and government system is different.

Israel is committing genocide, we give them $15bn in welfare every year. We don't embargo them. They are a non-secular, fake presidency run by the religious extremists. No sanctions and embargoes.

Saudi Arabia is committing genocide, we are spending billions to help them. They are also undeniably responsible for 9/11. No sanctions, no embargoes, nothing done about Khashoggi.

Iran has NEVER attacked US soil, but Israel hates them, let's starve them to death and bomb them off the face of the earth to keep them from selling their oil and screwing our profits!

Venezuela has NEVER attacked US soil or lifted a single finger against us. However, we failed at installing a puppet dictator who would play ball, so now we are starving them and or eventing them from selling their oil.

Americans are assholes.

Re: Square Canada has a Cuban coffee issue

#69

Post by vinay427 »

vkou wrote: post #67
vinay427 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the distinction of JPMorgan being the processor that denied the transactions is relevant here. IANAL but it's unclear to me that Square Canada is at fault for depending on a company that happens to comply with US laws.

If my bank took my money, and ran off with it, and then blamed it on bad behavior of some third party that I have nothing to do with, I have two things to say: 1. Not my problem. 2. Fuck you, pay me. If they can't find counter-parties that let them do their jobs, they should not be in the business of payment processing. I don't get to pick which third parties my bank interfaces with.

They're working on refunding her the money. I'm not sure running off with it is an appropriate comparison here. They just don't want to work with clients that have a business relationship with Cuba in the future.
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