Earlier quoted context omitted.
The glibc maintainers removed it because a dated oblique joke didn't help anyone use glibc. People got upset when Stallman demanded they revert the change and refused to compromise.
Makes sense. When reading the article I thought it implied that the joke was offensive. Apparently, it was Stallman's insistence on preserving the joke that was the problem, not the joke itself.
Richard Stallman’s Exit Heralds a New Era in Tech
61–69 of 69 posts
Re: Richard Stallman’s Exit Heralds a New Era in Tech
#62In seeing all the criticism that software developers have been taking lately over supposed speech transgressions (e.g. Stallman, Torvalds, "Bro", "Weboob"), I can't help but wonder why technical debates have shifted into personal ones, what the proper alternative is to the now seemingly much dreaded meritocratic way of doing things, who truly profits from this change and in what way do they profit from it? There's no…
Re: Richard Stallman’s Exit Heralds a New Era in Tech
#63Huh... I read the CSAIL email thread, and it seems like RMS was discussing distinctions between forcible acts, statutory acts, and coercion by a third party (e.g. Epstein being, in essence, a human-trafficking pimp...). RMS seemed to be arguing for clear description instead of jumping to "everything is child rape". I don't know exactly where RMS is coming from, but, knowing victims of forcible and child sexual assaul…
For those who understand "sexual assault" to mean "lack of consent", rejecting the first term is the same as rejecting the the concept of "consent" in a sexual relationship.
He could have criticized the term, like how he criticizes the term "intellectual property", but instead he rejected the term as being meaningful for this situation. And I want to stress, he used his own (folk) definition for 'sexual assault' in order to disparage how others were (correctly) using the term. How can he argue for a clear description when he doesn't even know that people are using a clear description?
His second wrong foot was in arguing that since age-of-consent laws vary, so sex between a 73-year-old and a 17-year-old is legal, shouldn't be counted as completely immoral. However, the same could apply to Epstein's pedophilia, so this is an indirect support of pedophilia.
Further, this was coerced sex with a minor, so age-of-consent laws don't apply.
This was all part of a defense of Minsky, who (Stallman argues) wasn't violent and likely assumed she was willing. That's the third wrong foot - "I thought she was 18" isn't a legal defense for age-of-consent laws. But really, it's several feet along the wrong path, as the question is not about age-of-consent - which may have been legal at the time Minksy visited the VI - but about sex with a sex slave, or commercial sex with a 17-year-old.
Note that under current VI law, sex between a 70+-year-old and a 17-year-old is classified as second-degree rape, so while it's true that not everything is child rape, in this case the distinction is very narrow. And Stallman was not making narrow arguments about VI law at the time the sex occurred.
Stallman presented what he thought was the most likely scenario, but didn't consider other scenarios. He assumed that Minsky did have sex with a 17-year-old.
In his hypothetical scenario, did Stallman think that Minsky did not consider this was a set-up for blackmail? How many other teens has Minsky had sex with? Why couldn't it be that Minsky knew that Epstein set him up with a prostitute, under a plausible deniability arrangement? (Statutory rape laws are set up to reject a plausible deniability argument.) These seem quite reasonable questions, but unaddressed.
To get to your comments, the issue is that there are clear descriptions - well, as clear as anything involving human nature - codified in law and used in wider discussions on ethics and morality. Stallman doesn't appear to understand these, and doesn't seem to believe that others do, so he rejects the basis for complaining about sexual assault at all.
He then talked about it at the wrong place, and the wrong time. What's the worst that could have happened had he written nothing? Very little. It would be a footnote in Minsky biographies. But at a time when more and more unethical behavior at MIT comes to light, well, it's not good timing. Even worse was his own long history of poor social interactions with women, which Minsky and the AI lab had helped protect, as well as his standing as the guiding light behind the free software movement.
With Minsky gone, and the spotlight on the MIT senior staff for their actions, he no longer had the buffer when he caused that bright light to shine on himself. I think this can be thought of as a change in the social landscape causing a "cusp catastrophe".
Re: Richard Stallman’s Exit Heralds a New Era in Tech
#64We can hope so. Free Software is needed in today’s society, probably more than it was needed at its inception. But it needs to be for everyone, and needs new leaders. I hope this is the start, not the end, of the movement.
I agree with everything you said, but this movement has been going on for a long time but and has been very bad at... hisss.. marketing. These are complex topics and people don't want to put in the effort to understand them so this needs some top-shelf selling power. And there's no money to be made. Just freedom (as in speech).
In my experience, people who say the FSF have been bad at marketing have three types of criticism.
The first two are unbelievably shallow, and honestly obviated by the FSFs success while ignoring them: 1) fonts, and whatever web design trend is current, and 2) Richard Stallman's personal appearance and tone. Plenty of contenders for the group du jour of software freedom have concentrated on web design and being attractive TED Talk types, have gotten zero traction, and faded into the mist - turns out people prefer a complete and detailed philosophy, a track record of standing behind it, and a spokesperson who clearly has no ulterior motives.
The third is both far more intense and more telling: when Stallman would criticize the practices of specific companies, or the failure or more permissive licenses to require the users to share changes. IMO, this is the criticism of people who don't actually agree with the idea of software freedom at all but don't want to say it because they have strong feelings about property rights and the ability to control their code after it's left their physical or technical possession, that don't jibe with their visceral disgust at a license that would force you to share, or to behave in any sort of an altruistic way (like the unfree "don't be evil" or "don't be the military" licenses.) Forced altruism bothers them.
The people in the third category are obviously unqualified to carry the torch because they at best are bystanders, and at worst enemies of the idea of free software. The people in the first two, the "marketers," are not likely do do it because marketing (of an useful, positive idea) is essentially cynical; it's sugar on the pill. It's what you do to get children to do something that's good for them but they don't understand. Adults prefer better pills. not better sugar. Sugar is cheap, I can buy my own.
Re: Richard Stallman’s Exit Heralds a New Era in Tech
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why not? It's a bit direct and perhaps odd and unexpected, but also polite, possibly flattering, and a very decent way of taking a chance on getting to know someone who you will likely not meet again unless you take action, better. If the response to the rejection of that offer is polite and professional, then how is this inappropriate?
It’s appropriate at a bar. It’s not appropriate at a professional conference or at work. Especially with the age / seniority difference, this is textbook sexual harassment.
Saying that doesn't make it so, you have to actually back your claim up with some reasoning.
Re: Richard Stallman’s Exit Heralds a New Era in Tech
#66In seeing all the criticism that software developers have been taking lately over supposed speech transgressions (e.g. Stallman, Torvalds, "Bro", "Weboob"), I can't help but wonder why technical debates have shifted into personal ones, what the proper alternative is to the now seemingly much dreaded meritocratic way of doing things, who truly profits from this change and in what way do they profit from it? There's no…
This pretty much hits the nail on the head. Why do engineers think they can talk about sexual assault in the same way they mull over the pros and cons of Kubernetes. Which is why, when Richard Stallman is mulling over whether sexual assault is a real thing, or whether you can really have assault without violence, it's a nasty place to be. Because the person talking about the issue very clearly isn't read up on the subject and is talking about (and often to) people who have actually experienced quite disturbing situations.
Re: Richard Stallman’s Exit Heralds a New Era in Tech
#67In seeing all the criticism that software developers have been taking lately over supposed speech transgressions (e.g. Stallman, Torvalds, "Bro", "Weboob"), I can't help but wonder why technical debates have shifted into personal ones, what the proper alternative is to the now seemingly much dreaded meritocratic way of doing things, who truly profits from this change and in what way do they profit from it? There's no…
> I can't help but wonder why technical debates have shifted into personal ones, This pretty much hits the nail on the head. Why do engineers think they can talk about sexual assault in the same way they mull over the pros and cons of Kubernetes. Which is why, when Richard Stallman is mulling over whether sexual assault is a real thing, or whether you can really have assault without violence, it's a nasty place to be…
Re: Richard Stallman’s Exit Heralds a New Era in Tech
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s appropriate at a bar. It’s not appropriate at a professional conference or at work. Especially with the age / seniority difference, this is textbook sexual harassment.
> this is textbook sexual harassment Saying that doesn't make it so, you have to actually back your claim up with some reasoning.
Explain why any young woman in tech would want to go to a conference where a bunch of old guys think it’s perfectly ok to treat her like a potential mate, instead of a colleague with a brain and technical background worth learning from and mentoring.
Explain why she should have to put up with shit like this, while her male peers do not.
Re: Richard Stallman’s Exit Heralds a New Era in Tech
#69Read the emails. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-091320191420... Then come back and read what I have to say. There was nothing offensive or controversial in there. Not a one. The man only pushed to avoid letting the narrative people wanted to believe run away with the reputation of a friend (Minsky) before all the facts were in. He's endorsing to let the justice system do it's work instead of letting…
The responses to Stallman on csail-related show that his comments were controversial and did offend some people even before the media distorted them. I agree with some of what Stallman said, but he didn't simply encourage everyone to reserve judgment. He imagined a plausible scenario, argued for a particular moral interpretation, and emphatically rejected legal definitions. He called opposing views "absolutely wrong"…
To be honest?
If they had, I'd have expected an official rebuttal, and a call for either calm, or a full retraction.
Since neither has happened, I see it as a duty to dig up, and try to propagate the facts as far as possible.
To that end a compilation of accusations, rebuttals, and sources follow.
Specifically, Stallman has been accused of
(1) Defending Jeffrey Epstein (while in reality Stallman was defending Marvin Minsky);
(2) Describing Epstein's victims as entirely willing (while in reality Stallman was arguing that one specific victim of Epstein, Virginia Giuffre, was presented to Minsky as entirely willing because she was coerced by Epstein, not that she was entirely willing);
(3) Defendinf pedophilia (while in reality Stallman was arguing that age doesn't matter in a case of rape because rape is always a terrible act no matter the age of the victim);
(4) Defending pedophilia in the past (while in reality Stallman already countered his controversial claim from 2006 -in which he expressed skepticism in case of consensual sex- with a comment in 2013, where he said that children can't really be consensual);
(5) Condoned sexual assault (while in reality Stallman was arguing that the term "sexual assault" does not fit the description of Minsky's act towards Virginia Giuffre since she wasn't assaulted by Minsky but coerced by Epstein; Stallman also added that the term is generally too vague as it refers to bad acts that can range from harmful to very harmful, and that the term usually makes readers think of the worst case);
(6) Implying that the victim wasn't harmed (while in reality Stallman explicitly claimed that she was harmed);
(7) Making comments that are excuses about rape, assault and child sex trafficking (while he condemned all three as explained above);
(8) Used to keep a mattress in his MIT office, implying sexual activity and/or macho behavior at work (while in reality Stallman is known to have lived in his office for a certain period of his life).
As a consequence of these writings, Stallman resigned from his position at MIT and also from his position at the Free Software Foundation.
Sources in chronological order:
September 12
https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21...
September 13
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-sci... https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929/091320191... https://www.thedailybeast.com/famed-mit-computer-scientist-r... September 14
https://www.stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_Septe...
Septembet 16
https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix... https://blog.halon.org.uk/2019/09/gnome-foundation-relations... https://sfconservancy.org/news/2019/sep/16/rms-does-not-spea... https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#16_September... https://www.fsf.org/news/richard-m-stallman-resigns
OTHER REFERENCES Stallman on his home
https://stallman.org/rms-lifestyle.html
Stallman on Pedophilia, 2006
https://www.stallman.org/archives/2006-may-aug.html#05%20Jun...
Stallman on pedophilia, part deuce, 2013
https://stallman.org/archives/2012-nov-feb.html#04_January_2...
Point being: Let his words/acts stand as they are, and come to your own judgement.
There is a petition floating around for journalists to own up and post a retraction (not that anyone is expecting miracles), but if you're against having the Press straight up spreading lies, consider offering a signature.
https://www.change.org/p/journalists-to-stop-the-persecution...
I leave it to every individuals conscience to make of it what they will... I just know that to me, this entire thing stinks to high heaven. I cannot see any way in which any of this boondoggle can be remotely said to have happened in good faith. Spread the word, or just at least make your decision on the most accurate information possible.