Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#61

Post by stevenwoo » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:07 AM UTC

teh_klev wrote: post #24

esotericn wrote: post #16

Is anyone else baffled by the idea that discussing something on an intellectual level, even related to a person, has to somehow be a 'defense' or an 'offense'? I've spent basically my entire life discussing things in the abstract. I'm not a politician, I don't make laws, and frankly I wouldn't want that power. To me it makes absolute sense that someone would attempt to "defend" even the most heinous person. It's weir…

I have, with the best most charitable reading of your post, no idea what you're talking about. Perhaps some context would be useful with regards to Stallman. Edit: in my defence, is op defending Stallman, or Epstein? Honestly, I don't know how Epstein and Stallman are related. I don't follow Stallman's every statement he makes. I simply asked for some context and enlightenment in this headline and esotericn's comment…

It came out this weekend that Stallman wrote that it was most plausible that the Epstein sexual partners were willing participants and the semantics of the word rape when used to refer to the children with whom Epstein had sexual relations in an email thread defending Epstein, Stallman also argued about the age of consent varying between different territories so not all the partners were below the age of consent where the alleged crimes occurred. Stallman also defended Marvin Minsky who went to Epstein events against victim accusations that Minsky was part of Epstein's trafficking ring.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#62

Post by baddox » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:07 AM UTC

esotericn wrote: post #54

75dvtwin wrote: post #43

> Amongst my real-life friendship groups this sort of "hate mob" type stuff just doesn't exist You have great friendship groups. Do you remember, by any chance how this topic was handled in your discussions (I am genuinely curios) "... Brendan Eich is gone. The creator of JavaScript and co-founder of mozilla.org has quit as Mozilla’s CEO, forced out by the uproar over a donation he made six years ago to a ballot meas…

Never came up. If you're after my personal opinion - I think that the whole debate about gay marriage gets muddled because there's basically this interplay between the state and religion. So you end up in this weird place where - those who really believe in the religious aspects of marriage have to be against gay marriage because it's literally "against the rules", it doesn't compile. But then in the real world, we h…

> So you end up in this weird place where - those who really believe in the religious aspects of marriage have to be against gay marriage because it's literally "against the rules", it doesn't compile.

Huh? I think it's widely considered acceptable for a straight person to be against entering into a gay marriage themselves. Supporting government policy that prevents other people from doing so is a very different matter.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#63

Post by rrdharan » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:07 AM UTC

Since I didn't see it elsewhere in this thread in a brief scan, this Vice article has some more context:

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/mbm74x/computer-scientist...

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#64

Post by gruez » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:08 AM UTC

teh_klev wrote: post #24

esotericn wrote: post #16

Is anyone else baffled by the idea that discussing something on an intellectual level, even related to a person, has to somehow be a 'defense' or an 'offense'? I've spent basically my entire life discussing things in the abstract. I'm not a politician, I don't make laws, and frankly I wouldn't want that power. To me it makes absolute sense that someone would attempt to "defend" even the most heinous person. It's weir…

I have, with the best most charitable reading of your post, no idea what you're talking about. Perhaps some context would be useful with regards to Stallman. Edit: in my defence, is op defending Stallman, or Epstein? Honestly, I don't know how Epstein and Stallman are related. I don't follow Stallman's every statement he makes. I simply asked for some context and enlightenment in this headline and esotericn's comment…

probably this:

> Epstein was accused of trafficking: bringing people long distances on false pretenses and then pressured them into sex or prostitution. He also reportedly raped some of those people. I believe those accusations, and I think he deserved to be imprisoned.

>Some of his victims were legally adult. Some were teenage minors. I don't think that makes any moral difference. I don't think rape is less wrong if the victim is over 16.

https://web.archive.org/web/20190903050208/https://stallman....

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#65

Post by roywiggins » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:08 AM UTC

partialrecall wrote: post #52

roywiggins wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect CSAIL is bristling with non-neurotypical people who didn't take this as a good time to come to the defense of Marvin Minksy in such a frankly bizarre way. It's one thing to say I don't think he did it , but to say "if he did it, it would not have been bad, and in this essay I will-" and to then distribute that to the entire CSAIL mailing list! I'll grant that some of the headlines about what RMS wrote were o…

I think Stallman is tactless, and I've thought that for years. That email didn't change anything I thought about him. I also think that being tactless is not a moral crime. It's aesthetically offensive and counterproductive from a leadership perspective, but being a bad leader doesn't make somebody a bad person.

If it comes down to whether RMS's position at CSAIL amounted to a leadership position or not, I'd venture that it did. Professors have institutional power that everyone else on the CSAIL list who isn't one don't have. Someone who abuses their name and position to blast screeds like that, I can see why CSAIL might not want him around anymore.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#66

Post by teh_klev » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:09 AM UTC

esotericn wrote: post #60

teh_klev wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and you think my comment must be somehow tribal in nature. Tribal in what way? And I said nothing of the sort. I have no "tribal" interest in Stallman's efforts or his beliefs. I think the man has done some fine things in terms of GPLv2, less so v3, but I'm certainly not an absolutist. I genuinely didn't understand your comment, which you still haven't answered, yet you attack me for being "tribal".

Well, you asked whether I'm defending Stallman or Epstein. The answer is, err, "not applicable"?

Then your comment is a non-sequitur, and you seem unwilling to defend or explain it (either way).

edit: ok, so now I have some context:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20990293

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-091320191420...

Which after all this was what I was asking for. Jeezo.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#67

Post by zinclozenge » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:09 AM UTC

esotericn wrote: post #54

75dvtwin wrote: post #43

> Amongst my real-life friendship groups this sort of "hate mob" type stuff just doesn't exist You have great friendship groups. Do you remember, by any chance how this topic was handled in your discussions (I am genuinely curios) "... Brendan Eich is gone. The creator of JavaScript and co-founder of mozilla.org has quit as Mozilla’s CEO, forced out by the uproar over a donation he made six years ago to a ballot meas…

Never came up. If you're after my personal opinion - I think that the whole debate about gay marriage gets muddled because there's basically this interplay between the state and religion. So you end up in this weird place where - those who really believe in the religious aspects of marriage have to be against gay marriage because it's literally "against the rules", it doesn't compile. But then in the real world, we h…

Marriage has, since time immemorial, always been a contractual relationship. What you described is exactly what marriage is, there's no need to come up with another word or term when a perfectly good one already exists.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#68

Post by mc32 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:09 AM UTC

esotericn wrote: post #34

loser777 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you’re famous enough to be considered a “representative” of a community (e.g., “hacker culture” in the case of rms) then you should be ready for anything you say to be taken at face value. There’s all the incentive in the world to write a takedown and rake in the karma (or claps).

Could you clarify what you mean by 'face value' in this sense? I guess you mean that a position taken for the purposes of intellectual discourse (e.g. devil's advocate) could just as well be the person's "real" position? Is there actually a difference in practice, if they're not in a position to act upon it anyway? (Or is the issue that by engaging in the discourse they are acting upon it?) I think I understand your…

“My god” as Slavoj would say. This is an extreme example of orthodoxy gone wrong. If people aren’t even able to philosophically evaluate things and take opposing views to test their positions, we're in for some truly dogmatic times.

Just look at the state of comedy today. It’s absurd. Their jokes are taken as their actual real-life positions on things.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#69

Post by gumby » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:09 AM UTC

geofft wrote: post #47

gumby wrote: post #5

I am surprised he was being paid by the Institute at all. For decades he was not AFAIK.

I don't believe he was. He's listed as a "visiting scientist": https://www.csail.mit.edu/person/richard-stallman I think that just means that some faculty member is sponsoring you to have building access and a login account, more or less. (And the implications of affiliation of course.)

The faculty members in question being Abelson and Sussman.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#70

Post by flukus » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:10 AM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #18

geekone wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which ones were troubling? I don't see anything that stands out on the page linked.

2006: https://www.stallman.org/archives/2006-may-aug.html#05%20Jun... > I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren't voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing. 2013: https://www.stallman.org/archives/2012-nov-feb.html#04_Janua... > There is little ev…

Is it troubling because it's wrong or troubling because you don't like the answer? Is there evidence that teens willingly engaging in sex with an adult causes harm? As a society it seems we already accept this, we often have different laws like statutory rape for consenting participants.

The implication here seems to be that just because he thinks there is no harm he is endorsing it as ok, that is getting dangerously close to straw-man territory.