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California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

nytimes.com

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Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#61

Post by krapp »

zwkrt wrote: post #60
rpmisms wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a few questions: - Where does the money for UBI come from? - How do you propose to deal with the sudden spike in rent prices that's almost exactly the UBI amount? - What do you do when welfare faring becomes socially acceptable?

Welfaring should be socially acceptable. Why should people have no choice other than to work?

Welfare would be more socially acceptable in the US if it weren't culturally associated with non-white populations and a creeping "socialist agenda."

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#62

Post by tomschlick »

zwkrt wrote: post #60
rpmisms wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a few questions: - Where does the money for UBI come from? - How do you propose to deal with the sudden spike in rent prices that's almost exactly the UBI amount? - What do you do when welfare faring becomes socially acceptable?

Welfaring should be socially acceptable. Why should people have no choice other than to work?

Because generally taking money from others which is meant to be for people on hard times, and giving nothing back in return is looked down upon. As it should be.

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#63

Post by moate »

49531 wrote: post #55
nvahalik wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ends unemployment permanently and forever is just an added bonus. Until those businesses which cannot survive in this model go away so even the part time job they had won't be around anymore...

As a society, should we really tolerate businesses who can only exist via exploitation?

This is the point that really needs to be driven home.

"But what about all the jobs that will close when we make better labor standards" should always be met with "these companies shouldn't exist in that form".

Taken to an extreme: Were abolitionists more concerned with freeing slaves from the labor abuses they were living under, or the long term prospects of the plantations and their business models?

Sometimes the business isn't worth the social costs.

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#64

Post by dls2016 »

rpmisms wrote: post #56
mrfusion wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just do a UBI instead of giving people busy work.

I have a few questions: - Where does the money for UBI come from? - How do you propose to deal with the sudden spike in rent prices that's almost exactly the UBI amount? - What do you do when welfare faring becomes socially acceptable?

> What do you do when welfare faring becomes socially acceptable?

Isn't that one of the promises of increased automation? Feature, not a bug.

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#65

Post by [deleted] »

neilwilson wrote: post #8

The way to reshape labour laws is to offer an alternative job defining the socially minimum acceptable job in a local area. Business then has to compete with that to attract labour. No other labour law required. Simple competition sorts it out. That is also has the advantage of being a geographically targeted federal automatic stabiliser that operates far more effectively than interest rate targeting via bank lending…

[deleted]

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#66

Post by dragonwriter »

rpmisms wrote: post #56
mrfusion wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just do a UBI instead of giving people busy work.

I have a few questions: - Where does the money for UBI come from? - How do you propose to deal with the sudden spike in rent prices that's almost exactly the UBI amount? - What do you do when welfare faring becomes socially acceptable?

> Where does the money for UBI come from?

Taxes.

> How do you propose to deal with the sudden spike in rent prices that's almost exactly the UBI amount?

Rent control.

> What do you do when welfare faring becomes socially acceptable

Celebrate the reduction in pointless stress and the associated social harms from no longer stigmatizing those with no other choice, while watching more of those who can do more actually doing so as human desires remain unlimited and UBI, compared to existing means-tested welfare, reduces the disincentive to putting effort in to earning additional income.

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#67

Post by tomschlick »

mrfusion wrote: post #54
neilwilson wrote: post #8

The way to reshape labour laws is to offer an alternative job defining the socially minimum acceptable job in a local area. Business then has to compete with that to attract labour. No other labour law required. Simple competition sorts it out. That is also has the advantage of being a geographically targeted federal automatic stabiliser that operates far more effectively than interest rate targeting via bank lending…

Or just do a UBI instead of giving people busy work.

I still haven't been able to get a straight answer out of pro-UBI people on what you do when a mother of 4, who was previously receiving food/housing assistance for her children blows all the cash.

Do we tell them tough? Or do we slowly institute more and more programs to only end up where we are again? Keep in mind that Yang is proposing UBI that would replace all other social / welfare programs.

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#68

Post by cheeseomlit »

zwkrt wrote: post #60
rpmisms wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a few questions: - Where does the money for UBI come from? - How do you propose to deal with the sudden spike in rent prices that's almost exactly the UBI amount? - What do you do when welfare faring becomes socially acceptable?

Welfaring should be socially acceptable. Why should people have no choice other than to work?

Someone has to work for society to function. And you're taking those people's money, often against their will, and giving it to people who don't want to work. You see nothing wrong with that?

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#69

Post by krapp »

tomschlick wrote: post #67
mrfusion wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just do a UBI instead of giving people busy work.

I still haven't been able to get a straight answer out of pro-UBI people on what you do when a mother of 4, who was previously receiving food/housing assistance for her children blows all the cash. Do we tell them tough? Or do we slowly institute more and more programs to only end up where we are again? Keep in mind that Yang is proposing UBI that would replace all other social / welfare programs.

Why would "we" do anything?

Why do opponents of UBI and welfare assume that people being able to misuse the money somehow constitutes an argument against those programs? Why is this theoretical mother of 4 "blowing all the cash" under UBI, but not blowing her food stamps or benefits?

Irresponsible people can be irresponsible under any circumstance, but I don't see anyone arguing against capitalism because poor people could spend their paychecks on junk food, booze and lottery tickets. It's only people under welfare who seem to need a paternalistic moral guardian.

Give people the money they need to live and let them make their own decisions, accepting that there will always be a limit to what governments and society can do.

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#70

Post by moate »

simias wrote: post #43
mfer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who decides what's good or bad? Who decides who decides? Where is the depth of knowledge, logic, and reason behind that? When it comes to good and bad we often lack these things and if we did I would wager we are not on the same page. "things I like" and "things I dislike" are far more honest and genuine.

How do you think a society could functions without a minimal set of shared values? Stuff like "killing each other is not super nice" and similar? Aren't values about "good" and "bad"? Unless you're talking from a purely nihilistic viewpoint which might be rational to some extent but not really productive. "Nothing matter, nothing is wrong, nothing is right, stuff just happens". Okay but where do we go from there?

Values are about personal preference. "Killing each other is not super nice" isn't a value in any real way due to the dilution words you add.

Take the following thoughts:

Killing people is a bad thing. During wars, soldiers kill people. Soldiers are virtuous people.

Do you believe/know that someone could think they believe all 3 of these things? If yes, what are their values?

Everything is situations. It's context. It's why philosophers play with so many variances of the trolley problem. Nothing is clean and easy, everyone is a hypocrite, nothing matters, stuff happens, and trying to rule a group by trying to worry about individual beliefs instead of aggregate beliefs shared among a majority (a slight difference from your statement that I took as "minimal set of shared values" which I assumed you meant applied to literally everyone).

Point is once you get a group above a certain size, there's only ever going to be majority favored ideas, not universally shared.

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