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India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

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Re: India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

#61

Post by douglaswlance »

dragonsh wrote: post #7

It's a good effort by ISRO and it's scientist. Just can't understand why so many countries reinventing the wheels. Space missions should be multi-country efforts continuously as it belongs to all. We should not extend our tribal nationalistic thinking to space. Best scientist can be in any nation and more diverse the group and experience the better chances of success. I know I am just dreaming, but hopefully we can c…

Do you have proof that this global philosophy you propose is more effective than nation-based organization?

Re: India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

#62

Post by emanreus »

nafey wrote: post #15
rayiner wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. We’re different groups of people with different interests, different values, different ideas principles cultures histories views of the world. It’s good for us to be competing to explore space (and in trying to develop technological advantages in general). For countries like India it’s critical to develop their own technologies on this front. Otherwise they’ll remain eternally dependent on America, etc., for acce…

Well let's revisit this statement in 500 years. Every decade has brought the world closer. Even the recent developments (brexit, trump) are reactions to increased pace of integration. You can find kfc, coca cola in socities as diverse as Mongolia and Madagascar. It will be extremely difficult to turn the clock back on this and this will only keep on intensifying in my opinion.

Trash food and beverage franchises brought us together? I don't think so.

Re: India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

#63

Post by Mountain_Skies »

nafey wrote: post #15
rayiner wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. We’re different groups of people with different interests, different values, different ideas principles cultures histories views of the world. It’s good for us to be competing to explore space (and in trying to develop technological advantages in general). For countries like India it’s critical to develop their own technologies on this front. Otherwise they’ll remain eternally dependent on America, etc., for acce…

Well let's revisit this statement in 500 years. Every decade has brought the world closer. Even the recent developments (brexit, trump) are reactions to increased pace of integration. You can find kfc, coca cola in socities as diverse as Mongolia and Madagascar. It will be extremely difficult to turn the clock back on this and this will only keep on intensifying in my opinion.

Sounds like proof that cultural imperialism is a valid complaint for much of the world. Is it a bad thing that some of the previous worst offenders are starting to pull back?

Re: India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

#64

Post by Shikadi »

rayiner wrote: post #44
JohnStrangeII wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post has "false dichotomy" written all over it. Of course, space exploration is an international endeavor and most space missions are highly international. Planning international space exploration missions doesn't force anyone to give up their nation, just as global trade does not imply that. Moreover, if mankind ever expands into space, it would be rather naive to think that earth's nations would play a role th…

The post I’m responding to went beyond international cooperation to address the concept of exploring space as a “single human race.” As to your second point—no government today is as large in scope as say Rome, the British Empire, the Persian empire, etc. The long-term sustainability of the EU and US are also far from certain. As we saw with both, federalism doesn’t work. As soon as you have a single voting polity, p…

I don't think "a single human race" implies a single government, considering we are already a single human race and always have been...

Re: India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

#65

Post by dalbasal »

dragonsh wrote: post #7

It's a good effort by ISRO and it's scientist. Just can't understand why so many countries reinventing the wheels. Space missions should be multi-country efforts continuously as it belongs to all. We should not extend our tribal nationalistic thinking to space. Best scientist can be in any nation and more diverse the group and experience the better chances of success. I know I am just dreaming, but hopefully we can c…

Should bes are tricky. At least historically, competitiveness & national pride have been good drivers. That usually meant big money national projects for the US and Russia. More recently it has meant affordable projects can be sold to smaller national governments. Israel & India both went this way recently. Both crashed their landers, but that might not be such a terrible thing.

There are also international efforts and private ones.

I like having multiple tools in the toolbox. They all seem to operate quite differently. ESA/NASA can do long horizon boundary projects and hard science. ISS can do hard science, and expand/internationalize the knowledge base. These small, one-off national projects can try out new (often low cost) designs and a "just because" rationales for missions. Private space is making great progress commodifying launches... Roscosmos has more room to play (currently, they sell seats on their vehicles), without having to support white elephant projects that compete with NASA's budget.

I'd say we're doing well, better than 10-20 years ago when the ISS had more of the "space pie," because space explorations is dispersed.

I definitely agree with the spirit of "earthlings unite" but I also like the plurality of space agencies. Hopefully, India is hooked and we'll see more from them.

No hate on international (or non national) projects though. Maybe Israel & India can combine forces for a 3rd mission. Both attempted a moon mission for around $100m. Both crashed their first attempt. If a 3rd mission succeeds we'll have a win for cooperation and we'll also have a proof of concept for affordable moon missions.

Re: India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

#66

Post by jackyinger »

rayiner wrote: post #10
dragonsh wrote: post #7

It's a good effort by ISRO and it's scientist. Just can't understand why so many countries reinventing the wheels. Space missions should be multi-country efforts continuously as it belongs to all. We should not extend our tribal nationalistic thinking to space. Best scientist can be in any nation and more diverse the group and experience the better chances of success. I know I am just dreaming, but hopefully we can c…

No. We’re different groups of people with different interests, different values, different ideas principles cultures histories views of the world. It’s good for us to be competing to explore space (and in trying to develop technological advantages in general). For countries like India it’s critical to develop their own technologies on this front. Otherwise they’ll remain eternally dependent on America, etc., for acce…

This is the kind of fractious factionalist junk that is designed to stoke terrestrial xenophobic fears.

Anecdotally I have traveled and met folks abroad as well as interacted with many immigrants domestically, at the end of the day I think it’s safe to say the basic nature of being hunt leads to us all having more in common than not.

Now governments being divisive for short sighted power grabs? Sure, but don’t say it’s the people.

Re: India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

#67

Post by dingoegret »

rayiner wrote: post #10
dragonsh wrote: post #7

It's a good effort by ISRO and it's scientist. Just can't understand why so many countries reinventing the wheels. Space missions should be multi-country efforts continuously as it belongs to all. We should not extend our tribal nationalistic thinking to space. Best scientist can be in any nation and more diverse the group and experience the better chances of success. I know I am just dreaming, but hopefully we can c…

No. We’re different groups of people with different interests, different values, different ideas principles cultures histories views of the world. It’s good for us to be competing to explore space (and in trying to develop technological advantages in general). For countries like India it’s critical to develop their own technologies on this front. Otherwise they’ll remain eternally dependent on America, etc., for acce…

I agree with this. Star Trek was immensely western centric. It always struck me as weird the crew would always quote western historical figures or play classic western music as a token of the "old world". In a power structure, homogenizing as "one world" will only benefit those already with more power than everyone else. They would gobble up the little fish and it would all be for a misbegotten ideal.

Re: India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

#68

Post by geofft »

rayiner wrote: post #10
dragonsh wrote: post #7

It's a good effort by ISRO and it's scientist. Just can't understand why so many countries reinventing the wheels. Space missions should be multi-country efforts continuously as it belongs to all. We should not extend our tribal nationalistic thinking to space. Best scientist can be in any nation and more diverse the group and experience the better chances of success. I know I am just dreaming, but hopefully we can c…

No. We’re different groups of people with different interests, different values, different ideas principles cultures histories views of the world. It’s good for us to be competing to explore space (and in trying to develop technological advantages in general). For countries like India it’s critical to develop their own technologies on this front. Otherwise they’ll remain eternally dependent on America, etc., for acce…

> We’re different groups of people

What sort of groups, precisely?

Historically, the concept of a "nation" (as the "nat-" root implies) is a people born of the same ancestry, a people native to the same land. Parthians, Medes and Elamites, and so forth - sharing an ethnicity, a language, and a culture.

Yet the first two "nations" to reach space, the US and the USSR, were hardly that. Sure, each had a majority ethnic group, but they both had (in their own way) an expectation that all people within their borders would conform to their culture, and relevantly that their approach to scientific research and space exploration would benefit the country as a whole.

And India isn't a "nation" in the historical sense, anyway. It's a collection of dozens of peoples, with significant and influential minority populations among them, and all are represented in the country as a whole and in ISRO in particular. Getting India into space on its own absolutely serves the needs of India as a sovereign power, but that's very different from saying that it serves the needs of humanity (or that India, or anyone else, should be a sovereign power).

And, relevant to the concept of "nation," there's no particular reason a person born into a high-information world should adopt the values of their ethnicity's historic culture more than any other values they may see.

Re: India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

#69

Post by emanreus »

dragonsh wrote: post #7

It's a good effort by ISRO and it's scientist. Just can't understand why so many countries reinventing the wheels. Space missions should be multi-country efforts continuously as it belongs to all. We should not extend our tribal nationalistic thinking to space. Best scientist can be in any nation and more diverse the group and experience the better chances of success. I know I am just dreaming, but hopefully we can c…

Space colonization is a wonderful opportunity to create unique civilizations, each pursuing their own destiny. Where does your sadistic desire to control the future of entire mankind come from?

Ability to choose different paths is far more appealing than suffering under some inescapable dystopian global diktat you have in mind. So yes, we should extend tribal thinking to space. Platitudes like "we are single human race" are as meaningful as saying we are all life.

Re: India Loses Contact with Probe Just as It Prepares to Land on Moon

#70

Post by PorterDuff »

JohnStrangeII wrote: post #33
rayiner wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. We’re different groups of people with different interests, different values, different ideas principles cultures histories views of the world. It’s good for us to be competing to explore space (and in trying to develop technological advantages in general). For countries like India it’s critical to develop their own technologies on this front. Otherwise they’ll remain eternally dependent on America, etc., for acce…

Your post has "false dichotomy" written all over it. Of course, space exploration is an international endeavor and most space missions are highly international. Planning international space exploration missions doesn't force anyone to give up their nation, just as global trade does not imply that. Moreover, if mankind ever expands into space, it would be rather naive to think that earth's nations would play a role th…

"Moreover, if mankind ever expands into space, it would be rather naive to think that earth's nations would play a role there in the long run."

Assuming some sort of breakthrough in cheap propulsion and living systems, I couldn't disagree more. If anything, you'd see efforts at a sub-state level with the early colonies in the Americas given as examples.

I think that states, and particularly nations, are well suited to large scale efforts with minimal or no immediate payoffs. It's hard to get a sufficiently large group to pull on a rope at the same time.

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