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Somehow I Became Respectable

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Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#61

Post by ajxs »

mruts wrote: post #34
Loughla wrote: post #10

Honestly, inside me it makes me wonder if we're seeing the cultural movement toward more progressive ideals, or if we're just seeing the cumulative generational shift away from what their parents stood for. Meaning - WWII's "the greatest generation" was a relatively conservative generation, and it's gone more liberal in terms of social movements ever since. Are we going to keep seeing this movement toward liberalism,…

I dunno, it doesn't seem like we are moving toward liberalism. Everyone wants everyone else kicked off a twitter, everyone wants censorship. Tumblr bans porn, youtube bans anything people complain about, cloudflare doesn't want to do business with 8chan, etc etc. These are all incredibly illiberal and having nothing to do with true liberalism. Liberalism, fundamentally, is about freedom (negative rights), both econom…

Thank you for posting this, it articulated my views on this issue so perfectly. I would call myself a liberal. Recently someone else who would describe themselves as a liberal called me a "free speech absolutist", a term they thought to constitute a dire epithet. To me this event only further highlighted what a dire state of affairs we were in. The triggering event was posting a clip of the Sir Thomas More "Give the devil benefit of law" speech from 'A man for all seasons', which I thought was liberal if nothing else.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#62

Post by nyolfen »

ticmasta wrote: post #29
mruts wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

IMO there's a big difference between shock and intolerance. Shock may usually (but not always) lead to a negative reaction, but intolerance seems more like a default position. To put it another way, shock is someone who jumps when you scare them; intolerance is someone standing with their arms crossed who's already made up their mind.

they're just taboos for different sets of values. nothing in a john waters movie ever 'scared' anybody.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#63

Post by pessimizer »

sprafa wrote: post #16
jfengel wrote: post #14

Honestly, John, you were responsible for a massive hit Broadway musical, one that's entirely acceptable to the out-of-towners after their visit to Times Square. You didn't "become respectable". You sold out. Getting gross stuff shown in a modern art museum is hardly an accomplishment. Manzoni did his "canned poop" thing in 1961. You're gonna have to try a lot harder than clips from porn movies. Pink Flamingos is stil…

Meh. Why so negative? A man makes money after doing some transgressive things in the past that are considered iconic. Sell out? Really?

Yes, really. You should assume that people mean what they said.

He should have sold out, though. He's old and he did a bunch of wonderful things. If he had waited any longer, the cash-out would have passed him by. Should everyone work forever?

Attending exhibitions of his work as the guest of honor, giving talks at film festivals, doing lecture/stand-up tours every once and a while for a bit of travel and excitement; that's the life and a well-deserved victory lap.

He didn't have to sell out, but it wasn't like he was a activist or something, he was a grotesque Douglas Sirk having a little fun.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#64

Post by chrisdhoover »

acomjean wrote: post #8

Compared to our current politics, John Waters is kinda respectable. I saw him at a university auditorium a couple years ago. Entertaining. Plus he was great on the Simpsons. Time seems to take the shock out of things. Maybe its the non-stop access to interesting things on the internet and photos and videos of everything taking the rumor and imagination out of things. GWAR's shows were mythic but now we have a nice wi…

I knew Dave Brockie. We both went to the same school, parties, and stickball games. Death Piggy played at my birthday party. We both had studio space in the Dairy. I saw the first GWAR show at Shafer Court.

I finally got around to watching Lord of the Rings. I was struck by how the costume design was nearly identical to GWAR’s. It made me wonder if or even how a self proclaimed cartoonist could have influenced someone on the other side of the world.

Its sad that he died; I’m losing all my old friends, Adam, Mike, John, my older brother. Jim Carroll was funny to us way back when. Not so funny now.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#65

Post by chrisdhoover »

chrisdhoover wrote: post #64
acomjean wrote: post #8

Compared to our current politics, John Waters is kinda respectable. I saw him at a university auditorium a couple years ago. Entertaining. Plus he was great on the Simpsons. Time seems to take the shock out of things. Maybe its the non-stop access to interesting things on the internet and photos and videos of everything taking the rumor and imagination out of things. GWAR's shows were mythic but now we have a nice wi…

I knew Dave Brockie. We both went to the same school, parties, and stickball games. Death Piggy played at my birthday party. We both had studio space in the Dairy. I saw the first GWAR show at Shafer Court. I finally got around to watching Lord of the Rings. I was struck by how the costume design was nearly identical to GWAR’s. It made me wonder if or even how a self proclaimed cartoonist could have influenced someon…

One other thing I thought of. Our neighborhood had its own Divine wannabe. Donnie, aka Dirt Woman, was a kindred spirit with John Waters and Divine.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#66

Post by asveikau »

ajxs wrote: post #57
asveikau wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asking someone to be tolerant of intolerance seems like some weird thing where you ask a Turing machine if another one will halt. It's kind of paradoxical.

Supporting sensible controls on immigration hardly constitutes 'intolerance'. The framing of anything short of open-borders as 'intolerance' has perverted the entire modern political discussion.

"Imagine there's no countries." -John Lennon.

I heard an interview of him where he explained that statement. He said it referred to before the rise of the modern nation-state, where you could walk somewhere and suddenly it was another country, and it just sort of worked as a continuum of places. The idea of passport control came out of World War I. Your boundary-heavy "sensible" version is a very small part of human history.

I am aware of what people say will happen if we erode those boundaries. It's overblown. I recognize this is a minority position. But maybe let go of your fear.

Anyway. I don't think you're intolerant for believing this. But when there is subtext that immigrants are subhuman, or one nation or subgroup is preferential, which seems to go around a lot these days, then yes, I have a problem.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#67

Post by whatshisface »

ajxs wrote: post #56
mruts wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Judging by the tone of the democratic primaries debates, even professing support for such a benighted concept as the sovereign right of your nation to control its border is enough to 'shock' at least a reasonable portion of the public. If you refuse to use someone's chosen pronouns you're going to generate some 'shock' too. The current status quo may like to consider itself having shrugged off the prudishness of the…

I think people are like machines that execute a few basic behaviors, but that can have ideologies and allegances slotted in to color their execution.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#68

Post by Izkata »

Loughla wrote: post #10

Honestly, inside me it makes me wonder if we're seeing the cultural movement toward more progressive ideals, or if we're just seeing the cumulative generational shift away from what their parents stood for. Meaning - WWII's "the greatest generation" was a relatively conservative generation, and it's gone more liberal in terms of social movements ever since. Are we going to keep seeing this movement toward liberalism,…

Neither. The shift towards liberalism has significantly slowed and even reversed on some issues with Gen Z, but the result isn't looking anything like traditionally conservative values.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashleystahl/2017/08/11/why-demo...

https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019/01/17/generation-z-look...

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#69

Post by [deleted] »

ajxs wrote: post #57
asveikau wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asking someone to be tolerant of intolerance seems like some weird thing where you ask a Turing machine if another one will halt. It's kind of paradoxical.

Supporting sensible controls on immigration hardly constitutes 'intolerance'. The framing of anything short of open-borders as 'intolerance' has perverted the entire modern political discussion.

[deleted]

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#70

Post by satori99 »

4ntonius8lock wrote: post #30

"First the establishment will ignore you; then they laugh at you; then they crack down on you and then you become part of the establishment." Someone I'm glad everything he represents is now accepted. I remember watching Pink Flamingos in the early 2000s when I was discovering cinematography and understanding the industry and it's evolution. It has shock value, but it was deeper than that. When I saw his film, it rem…

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

-Mahatma Gandhi (Maybe?)

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