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Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

nytimes.com

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Re: Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

#61

Post by 9nGQluzmnq3M »

Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #39
mytailorisrich wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would China even consider "ejecting" a part of its territory that they fought over for a long time to finally get back? Recovery of lost territories and reunification of the country is a core policy of the Chinese government(s) since 1912... And as noted in the replies, striving for national unity is an ancient theme of Chinese national psyche.

Which I find to be irrational. Stamford Raffles "took" Singapore from the Malay sultanate in the 1820s. In 1963, we finally got it back, but let them go barely two years later due to ingrained cultural differences that manifested during the meantime. With the rise of so many capable cities on the mainland, perhaps pursuit of unification is just not worth the trouble anymore.

"ingrained cultural differences" -> read: Malay politicians didn't want to deal with a large Chinese-majority city run by a headstrong union leader (Lee Kuan Yew) who could not be counted on to play ball with UMNO.

This is very different from HK and China.

Re: Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

#63

Post by the-dude »

ephemeralism wrote: post #25
londons_explore wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think are the chances that the tanks roll in, all protestors are shot or arrested, marshal law is declared for a few months, and eventually Hong Kong becomes just another city in China without its own special governance or laws?

Why would they do this and not just continue to use riot police and tire the protesters out, as has recently been done with success in France?

Do you have any sources for the 'tire out' and 'with succes' in France?

Because from my view, they are still going strong.

Re: Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

#64

Post by Proven »

xxxpupugo wrote: post #11
zeristor wrote: post #2

What are the chances of the unrest spreading into China? One hears of sporadic unrest through China, I take the economy hasn’t yet faltered so people aren’t too disgruntled. I take it this qualifies as “Interesting Times”

Zero. The Chinese public sentiment is on the government side. In fact, what I have sensed is that there is certain fraction of the general public wants the government to take more drastic measures, and quickly.

[dead]

Re: Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

#65

Post by dspillett »

brianpgordon wrote: post #58

> China’s top leader, Xi Jinping, wants to make Hong Kong more like a mainland city, using economic incentives to buy happiness and propaganda to win loyalty. The protesters, who represent a wide swath of Hong Kong, want a government that looks out for their interests, not just Beijing’s, to help resolve problems like astronomical housing prices and low wages. > The two sides no longer seem to recognize each other’s…

It seems to be the way for many outlets these days.

If someone says it is bright & sunny, and someone else says there is a huge dark angry thunder storm in the same location, the BBC will present both view points instead of looking out of the window to check if one seems more accurate than the other.

Re: Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

#66

Post by Excel_Wizard »

brianpgordon wrote: post #58

> China’s top leader, Xi Jinping, wants to make Hong Kong more like a mainland city, using economic incentives to buy happiness and propaganda to win loyalty. The protesters, who represent a wide swath of Hong Kong, want a government that looks out for their interests, not just Beijing’s, to help resolve problems like astronomical housing prices and low wages. > The two sides no longer seem to recognize each other’s…

It is up to the reader to form an opinion given the evidence presented to them. The media should try to present both sides as neutrally as possible. If Beijing's side has been watered down so much as to be comically neutral, the reader should be able to pick up on this and understand the lack of positive traits attributable to Beijing's position.

The recent inversion of the norm of the neutrality of the media is bad. You talk as if it is good. Look at an AP or Reuters report directly from their website if you want to read the news with minimal spin. They keep to the facts, and they don't pitch each story as part of a grand moral battle. Any moral stance the media takes should be seen as a demerit, even if it is one you agree with. The exception being the editorials, or their equivalent.

EDIT: I feel like I've done a disservice to my position. I need to mention that neutrality in media is connoted with sticking to the facts. If you want to do a good job as a reporter, fill your articles with accurate, unembellished facts. Make the dang article 90%+ factual information without hystrionics or fluff. I've seen plenty of yellow journalism lately, but the accusation that excessive neutrality is just fluff is silly when you look at this article or at the corpus of NYTimes's articles.

Re: Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

#67

Post by kenneth »

csomar wrote: post #57
kenneth wrote: post #5

So… a few thoughts. I live in HK (having semi-recently moved here from the Bay Area, right before this all flared up). First, there's a ton of misinformation out there. Few sources have entirely accurate information, but the best English-language resource I've found on the subject is the local paper South China Morning Post (scmp.com). They have pretty accurate and unbiased live reporting of the protests as it flares…

Your argument is good and well-written. However, SCMP is well-known to be China newspaper even before Alibaba: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_China_Morning_Post I find it very hard to believe that SCMP has both accurate and unbiased reporting after reading the Wikipedia article. This makes your comment read like a China-sponsored chill. I'm talking about this as someone who is neither if favor of any party. Medi…

I find SCMP about equivalent to the NYT in the US. Not without its issues, but does quality reporting. When I need to follow the action live in HK to figure out what is happening (where protests are, what is happening in those protests, etc.), I find them to be reliable, fast, and accurate.

I'm not denying that they have a pretty pro-establishment point of view when it comes to their editorial. I'm not convinced that China has a major influence over their reporting, however.

Anyways, others recommend the Hong Kong Free Press as an alternative. Or you could also follow along on Twitter or join the private groups.

Re: Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

#68

Post by consciouskernel »

stefan_ wrote: post #48
kenneth wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you rely on South China Morning Post (scmp.com) to be unbiased as their current owner is Chinese Alibaba Group ? Apart from mild criticisms, I don't think Alibaba group can afford to publish against Chinese government. Not sure why your comment was killed, because I think it's a valid question. But since it was, responding here. Yes, they're owned by Alibaba. I happen to know some SCMP employees which gives me…

You literally just have to open their front page to find them calling military deployments in a stadium near Hong Kong "drills", citing anonymous sources that say "they are not of concern" and quoting liberally from anonymous online-posters on Chinese message boards (sic!) spouting hate.

I found it interesting that another username commented with the exact same message[0] in a related thread, slightly modified but with the exact same sentence structure and quotes.

> You only just have to open the SCMP front page to find them calling military deployments in a stadium near Hong Kong "drills", citing anonymous sources that say "they are not of concern" and quoting liberally from anonymous posters on Chinese message boards spouting hate.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20684694

Re: Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

#69

Post by heymijo »

brianpgordon wrote: post #58

> China’s top leader, Xi Jinping, wants to make Hong Kong more like a mainland city, using economic incentives to buy happiness and propaganda to win loyalty. The protesters, who represent a wide swath of Hong Kong, want a government that looks out for their interests, not just Beijing’s, to help resolve problems like astronomical housing prices and low wages. > The two sides no longer seem to recognize each other’s…

Contrast this language with the HK protestors 5 demands. NYT looks even worse.

- a full withdrawal of a proposed bill that would allow Hong Kong people to be extradited to mainland China - a retraction of any characterization of the movement as a “riot” - a retraction of charges against anti-extradition protesters - an independent committee to investigate the Hong Kong police’s use of force - universal suffrage in elections for the city’s chief executive officer and legislature by 2020

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/09/hong-kong-international-airp...

Re: Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

#70

Post by heymijo »

Excel_Wizard wrote: post #66
brianpgordon wrote: post #58

> China’s top leader, Xi Jinping, wants to make Hong Kong more like a mainland city, using economic incentives to buy happiness and propaganda to win loyalty. The protesters, who represent a wide swath of Hong Kong, want a government that looks out for their interests, not just Beijing’s, to help resolve problems like astronomical housing prices and low wages. > The two sides no longer seem to recognize each other’s…

It is up to the reader to form an opinion given the evidence presented to them. The media should try to present both sides as neutrally as possible. If Beijing's side has been watered down so much as to be comically neutral, the reader should be able to pick up on this and understand the lack of positive traits attributable to Beijing's position. The recent inversion of the norm of the neutrality of the media is bad.…

Excel_Wizard, you are conflating neutrality with objective reporting. There is no objectivity. Every line and word written has a bias. Equating two sides when they are starkly different is not neutral and reporting the facts.

If Beijing's side has been watered down so much as to be comically neutral, the reader should be able to pick up on this and understand the lack of positive traits attributable to Beijing's position.

If you truly believe this is the case, please get outside of whatever bubble you are living in and see how other people think.

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