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Who Owns Huawei?

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61–70 of 334 posts

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TikTok & Snapchat as well. Youths are more prone to getting radicalized too, which would be useful for the Party's geopolitical goals.

No. What's being floated in this thread is an absurd premise. By that premise, Norway controls Microsoft and Apple because they own part of the companies via their sovereign fund. Microsoft by itself of course is worth as much as Norway's entire fund. Snapchat is a publicly traded company, of which institutional money representing primarily US investors controls the dominant position in the company. Reddit is minorit…

>By that premise, Norway controls Microsoft and Apple because they own part of the companies

Even so, Norway's political/ideological/moral objectives are in line with the west's. There is a difference between the Norwegians having some influence in something, as opposed to the Chinese.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#62
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

would you classify Tencent on the same level as Huawei? And if so, does that mean most American youth are plugged into League Of Legends & Fortnite, a Chinese Surveillance system ? lol

Absolutely, but remember that they aren’t prevented from making money or conducting legitimate business just because they answer to the party officials. It’s not worthwhile to spy on teenagers wholesale, but they might pull the logs of a senator’s kid and we would never be the wiser. Also, owning some of Western popular culture is a decent geopolitical chip. Maybe it’s not as great as a nuke, but China can use popula…

> Also, owning some of Western popular culture is a decent geopolitical chip.

Tencent is co-producing the Top Gun sequel, and Maverick's jacket no longer has either the Japanese or Taiwanese flags on the back:

* https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/a28479683/

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gun:_Maverick

> Maybe it’s not as great as a nuke, but China can use popular video games to raise the next generation of kids to be more friendly to China.

K-pop seems to be helping Korea:

* https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/2/16/16915672/what-is-kpop-...

Though they're not a totalitarian state. I think if people get too friendly or sympathetic a couple of articles will bring reality back:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#63
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I for one absolutely put Tencent on the same level. One is software and user espionage and the other is hardware. Same coin.

As a Chinese lived in mainland China for 20 years, gotta say all you guys are overestimating the authoritarian.

> ... overestimating the authoritarian.

Sure:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#64
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I for one absolutely put Tencent on the same level. One is software and user espionage and the other is hardware. Same coin.

As a Chinese lived in mainland China for 20 years, gotta say all you guys are overestimating the authoritarian.

[deleted]

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#65
post #2

Ownership does not mean the same thing in non democratic states. The law and incorporation rules are always an approximation of what's applied in reality, but it is much more so in authoritarian states. The real two questions are those of profit distribution and actual power, as in the ability to effect change. The latter is always constrained by the ruling party, no matter what the incorporation rules say, and no ma…

The crux of the difficulty at understanding Huawei's ownership system is because Ren Zhengfei modeled it as a Maoist collective ownership mechanism, an alien concept prone to misreading from a private ownership premise, and at the same time it is facilitated by existing private ownership laws.

Employees do indeed not own the company nor shares of the company in a private ownership sense because they cannot liquidate their shares if they wish to quit the company. But it is the very same design that makes the company immune to pressure from outside investors and the financial drive to capitalization, and enables it to fully reinvest all profits back to R&D and employee dividends, which is also a major reason for its explosive growth. It is reported some early employees got paid so much from their shares that they just stopped working and went on vacation indefinitely.

If all profits of the production activities of a collective go back to its members and the continuation of growth of the collective, can you meaningfully claim the members of the collective do not own the assets of the collective and not control it?

This profit returning scheme is legally possible only by being facilitated by the Company Law of the PRC. And the way the company ownership is structured by a "trade union committee" is also legally facilitated by the Trade Union Law of the PRC. It is a fatal error for the paper to claim the company is state-owned because the controlling trade union committee of Huawei operates under the aegis of the All-China Federation of Trade Unions. In fact, all SOEs in China are governed by the State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission of the State Council, and the All-China Federation of Trade Unions is not legally sanctioned nor capable to manage private companies. Then the best reading of all the contradictions would be that Ren Zhengfei managed to carve out of a space for communist collective ownership by "hacking" the existing legal system of private companies.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#66

I've heard a similar observation phrased slightly differently to describe Russia. If you're looking at a large Russian company, it goes, you're by definition looking at a company that has come to some kind of accommodation with the state -- because if they hadn't, the state would never have permitted them to get large.

Russia, according to famed Russian dissident Garry Kasparov, operates this way more as a mafia syndicate. Corruption allows the “oligarchs” to enrich themselves with the nation’s mineral resources so long as some of their power (and even money) remains at the beck and call of the don: Putin.

China is different. It’s not an oil and gas oligarchy like Russia or the Gulf states. It is somewhat like the US was during the Second World War—somewhat capitalist in form but almost entirely geared toward the strategic goals of the country, as dictated by the government. The main exceptions are that the US had elections intermittently and that the US was in the midst of total war. China isn’t at war though—it’s just a totalitarian society.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TikTok & Snapchat as well. Youths are more prone to getting radicalized too, which would be useful for the Party's geopolitical goals.

No. What's being floated in this thread is an absurd premise. By that premise, Norway controls Microsoft and Apple because they own part of the companies via their sovereign fund. Microsoft by itself of course is worth as much as Norway's entire fund. Snapchat is a publicly traded company, of which institutional money representing primarily US investors controls the dominant position in the company. Reddit is minorit…

The only reason it seems absurd is because the level of interconnectedness in today’s society and the various entities in it is simply unprecedented.

While there may not be a grand conspiracy, it isn’t too far-fetched to suggest that organizations that specialize in espionage, sabotage and propaganda can figure out, or may already have figured out, how to pull the various levers at their disposal to achieve their goals.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#68
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

would you classify Tencent on the same level as Huawei? And if so, does that mean most American youth are plugged into League Of Legends & Fortnite, a Chinese Surveillance system ? lol

Absolutely, but remember that they aren’t prevented from making money or conducting legitimate business just because they answer to the party officials. It’s not worthwhile to spy on teenagers wholesale, but they might pull the logs of a senator’s kid and we would never be the wiser. Also, owning some of Western popular culture is a decent geopolitical chip. Maybe it’s not as great as a nuke, but China can use popula…

> Just having the idea “I like the things that come out of China” in billions of brains can increase China’s share of global GDP and power.

Also known as the Japan strategy. Many have tried to emulate it, it’s very hard.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#69

> We know nothing about the internal governance procedures of the trade union committee. > We do not know who the committee members or other trade union leaders are, or how they are selected. > Given the public nature of trade unions in China, if the ownership stake of the trade union committee is genuine, and if the trade union and its committee function as trade unions generally function in China, then Huawei may b…

I disagree. I think you are used to Western Companies where the default is private ownership. All major Chinese companies began as state owned enterprises, and it is usually necessary to get investment from one to get a charter. So ostensibly private companies have a big state investment. Plus a trade union committee implies a government structure.

>I think you are used to Western Companies where the default is private ownership.

From a continental European perspective I'd contest that. Quite a few of today's multinationals here began as either wholly or partly state owned and/or today have still significant state ownership - especially in infrastructure/utility/telecommunications, but also in "strategic" industries. This includes telcos like Deutsche Telekom (with its daughter T-Mobile), former state mail companies like DHL, Airbus (and its numerous predecessors), most of the state airlines (Lufthansa, Air France-KLM, SAS etc.), and others like Volkswagen, Renault, Peugeot/PSA, STMicro just to name a few.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#70
post #32

I've heard a similar observation phrased slightly differently to describe Russia. If you're looking at a large Russian company, it goes, you're by definition looking at a company that has come to some kind of accommodation with the state -- because if they hadn't, the state would never have permitted them to get large.

On the surface these state owned operations look similar but the results speak to the contrary. I think Chinese corporations behave more like a beehive and Russians like a wolf pack. The Kremlin chased out a lot Russians with academic papers. China on the other hand seems to be the place that facilitates the best startup opportunities.

This makes sense. Russian economy is much less dependent on talented work force, they have vast resources in proportion to their population.
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