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Toni Morrison Has Died

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Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#61

Post by davesmith1983 »

ergothus wrote: post #58
davesmith1983 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My grandmother cries when describing the poverty they lived in when she was a child (1930s) in Newcastle (Northern England). Nobody had it easy in the past. Well done for falling for the propaganda that racially divides people and is frequently sold by activists to people like yourself who seem to have bought it. People of all colours and creeds will try to garner sympathy from the other group by claiming how disadva…

> Nobody had it easy in the past. Clearly everyone has had it equally difficult and there is no grouping of peoples that get systemic mistreatment, evidence and statistics be damned. Yes, people can have it hard. And people can have it hard out of proportion with their peers. This doesn't alter provable facts about sweeping populations. > The reality is that there are plenty of people from all races that have made it…

> Clearly everyone has had it equally difficult and there is no grouping of peoples that get systemic mistreatment, evidence and statistics be damned.

Never claimed that.

> Yes, people can have it hard. And people can have it hard out of proportion with their peers. This doesn't alter provable facts about sweeping populations.

I didn't claim it disproved anything. I was pointing out that life wasn't fair and there was poverty that you and I can't possibly fathom and it affected everyone no matter what the colour of their skin.

> And just like your grandmother disproves any systemic problem by difficulty, any success by any individual does the same, proving that they cannot be an exception to the rule.

Never claimed that.

It is really astounding that someone can spend so much time logic chopping and fail to understand what I was actually saying.

This lie of people having to be represented by someone of their own skin in a nonsense that is sold by activists to students to make them feel bad because of the colour of their skin. The person I was replying to had bought this nonsense.

The fact is unfortunately that racists (both white and black ones) will use this to further racially divide people about what happened in the past.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#62

Post by MrRadar »

davesmith1983 wrote: post #55
MrRadar wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

??? What does that have anything to do with the comment you replied to? > The reality is that there are plenty of people from all races that have made it to the top of society. And yet the people at the "top of society" disproportionately come from a just a few of those groups. :thinking-emoji: > ... what is currently happening in Qatar ... Classic whataboutism. We can care about multiple things at the same time. > w…

> ??? What does that have anything to do with the comment you replied to? Absolutely everything. This myth there hasn't been representation of minorities or women completely neglecting the fact that there has been plenty going back to mid 20th century. > Classic whataboutism. We can care about multiple things at the same time. Not at all. Slavery in Qatar is happening today, not in the past. The past can't be changed…

> Not at all. Slavery in Qatar is happening today, not in the past. The past can't be changed, but we can try to improve the future.

The effects of American slavery linger to this day. People are allowed to care about things that impact them more than things that don't, and for most descendants of American slaves the slavery that happened 150+ years ago (and the subsequent 100 years of Jim Crow) has a more direct impact on their lives than foreign labor exploitation.

> All it does is divide people and allow both Black and White racist to whip up hatred.

Can you please provide an example of black racism and explain how it has prevented white people from achieving equality with black people.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#63

Post by otabdeveloper2 »

magpi3 wrote: post #11

I love reading, but only a handful of books have really changed the way I look at the world. The Bluest Eye was one of them. Minor spoiler: in the bluest eye a young black girl obsesses over a white female doll with blue eyes. Before I read it, I never considered the impact that the idealization of white beauty could have on minorities. After reading that book, I realized how important it was for children to be able…

> how would those books have affected me if all characters looked nothing like me?

What, are you an elf or a dwarf? Or maybe somehow you are both at the same time? My head is spinning.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#64

Post by davesmith1983 »

MrRadar wrote: post #62
davesmith1983 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ??? What does that have anything to do with the comment you replied to? Absolutely everything. This myth there hasn't been representation of minorities or women completely neglecting the fact that there has been plenty going back to mid 20th century. > Classic whataboutism. We can care about multiple things at the same time. Not at all. Slavery in Qatar is happening today, not in the past. The past can't be changed…

> Not at all. Slavery in Qatar is happening today, not in the past. The past can't be changed, but we can try to improve the future. The effects of American slavery linger to this day. People are allowed to care about things that impact them more than things that don't, and for most descendants of American slaves the slavery that happened 150+ years ago (and the subsequent 100 years of Jim Crow) has a more direct imp…

> The effects of American slavery linger to this day.

Do they? How?

> has a more direct impact on their lives than foreign labor exploitation.

Apparently slavery that happened over 100 years ago in a first world country where there is relatively good education (a friend of mine is married to a Cambodian woman and she didn't learn how to read until she was 16) is more important than the slavery that is happening all over the world today.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#65

Post by ergothus »

davesmith1983 wrote: post #61
ergothus wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody had it easy in the past. Clearly everyone has had it equally difficult and there is no grouping of peoples that get systemic mistreatment, evidence and statistics be damned. Yes, people can have it hard. And people can have it hard out of proportion with their peers. This doesn't alter provable facts about sweeping populations. > The reality is that there are plenty of people from all races that have made it…

> Clearly everyone has had it equally difficult and there is no grouping of peoples that get systemic mistreatment, evidence and statistics be damned. Never claimed that. > Yes, people can have it hard. And people can have it hard out of proportion with their peers. This doesn't alter provable facts about sweeping populations. I didn't claim it disproved anything. I was pointing out that life wasn't fair and there wa…

> It is really astounding that someone can spend so much time logic chopping and fail to understand what I was actually saying.

Perhaps because I was interpreting it in the context of the comment you were replying to (mine).

Poverty is devastating. True...and not related at all to what I said. I didn't mention economics or finances AT ALL save to mention that my comments were true regardless of my financial background. So if your comment wasn't in relation to what I said...but it was. There's an implied connection that I gave a rebuttal to, and in the face of that rebuttal, you deny the connection. That implodes my rebuttal...but leaves your comment without contextual purpose.

> I was pointing out that life wasn't fair and there was poverty that you and I can't possibly fathom and it affected everyone no matter what the colour of their skin.

Another true statement. And also unrelated to what you were replying to, unless you were trying put in the implied connection.

> This lie of people having to be represented by someone of their own skin in a nonsense that is sold by activists to students to make them feel bad because of the colour of their skin

Citation needed - at this point you're denying misrepresentation of minorities in popular media, which is such a well-documented problem and so obviously observable that your unsupported assertions would be laughable if the issue wasn't related to tragedy. Also - I don't feel bad for the color of my skin. At all. (Except when I get a sunburn) I _do_ feel bad for supporting a system that is systemically unfair, but the solution to that is not to deny the problem, nor to assume a vast burden of guilt that you assume I (and others) have taken on. The solution is to improve the system. To modify my support.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#66

Post by MrRadar »

davesmith1983 wrote: post #64
MrRadar wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not at all. Slavery in Qatar is happening today, not in the past. The past can't be changed, but we can try to improve the future. The effects of American slavery linger to this day. People are allowed to care about things that impact them more than things that don't, and for most descendants of American slaves the slavery that happened 150+ years ago (and the subsequent 100 years of Jim Crow) has a more direct imp…

> The effects of American slavery linger to this day. Do they? How? > has a more direct impact on their lives than foreign labor exploitation. Apparently slavery that happened over 100 years ago in a first world country where there is relatively good education (a friend of mine is married to a Cambodian woman and she didn't learn how to read until she was 16) is more important than the slavery that is happening all o…

Why are you trying to play the oppression olympics? We can care about multiple things at the same time.

Re: the legacy of slavery, this USA Today article is a good starting point[1].

Additionally, it's plainly obvious that black Americans today have much less wealth than white Americans. When whites settled in the US they were often given farm land or brought capital from abroad to start businesses. Black slaves had neither. When they were freed most became trapped in sharecropping arrangements (often for generations) that left them with little wealth. White Americans also benefited much more from the social programs of the early 20th century, such as New Deal work programs or subsidized home mortgages (look up "red lining"), that helped build wealth.

Also, you did not provide an example of black racism (which you have referenced in at least two posts as being equal to white racism).

[1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/02/08/co...

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#67

Post by davesmith1983 »

ergothus wrote: post #65
davesmith1983 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Clearly everyone has had it equally difficult and there is no grouping of peoples that get systemic mistreatment, evidence and statistics be damned. Never claimed that. > Yes, people can have it hard. And people can have it hard out of proportion with their peers. This doesn't alter provable facts about sweeping populations. I didn't claim it disproved anything. I was pointing out that life wasn't fair and there wa…

> It is really astounding that someone can spend so much time logic chopping and fail to understand what I was actually saying. Perhaps because I was interpreting it in the context of the comment you were replying to (mine). Poverty is devastating. True...and not related at all to what I said. I didn't mention economics or finances AT ALL save to mention that my comments were true regardless of my financial backgroun…

> Citation needed - at this point you're denying misrepresentation of minorities in popular media, which is such a well-documented problem and so obviously observable that your unsupported assertions would be laughable if the issue wasn't related to tragedy.

Sorry I don't see it. All through my life (I am almost 40 years old) there has been plenty of black people on the television and in films and most of the time it has been everything from Gangstars to Action Heroes.

> I _do_ feel bad for supporting a system that is systemically unfair, but the solution to that is not to deny the problem, nor to assume a vast burden of guilt that you assume I (and others) have taken on. The solution is to improve the system. To modify my support.

It isn't systemically unfair. You keep on asserting it is.

We live in a society that only really cares about your ability to make money i.e. produce. That is capitalism.

In the UK we had a black rapper head up the largest outdoor festival in England.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#68

Post by takeout »

ryanmercer wrote: post #52
amdavidson wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you need to grow your bubble a bit. I would say her Nobel (or many other awards[0]) is a greater indication of the reverence given to her than the fact that you have not heard of her. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toni_Morrison#Awards_and_nomin...

It looks like there have been 113 individuals that have won a Nobel Prize in Literature. While I'm sure it's an impressive accomplishment I don't think that necessarily means "everyone should know about this person or they are uncultured swine!" It looks like she's mostly known because 4 of her works were featured by Oprah's book club. I generally don't base my reading list off of the recommendation of day time talk…

I mean, if you took a basic look at her Wikipedia you'll see that she had won a Pulitzer and a NOBEL PRIZE before Oprah recommended any of her books.

It's okay that you don't know who someone is, but there's no need to denigrate an artist or question their bonafides because you don't know who they are.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#69

Post by takeout »

Lordarminius wrote: post #51
takeout wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely unfounded, ridiculous, and racist suggestion. Toni Morrison is one of the most revered writers in human history.

Ummm... She was great at what she did, and in all certainty, a literary giant. But "one of the most revered writers in human history" ? Nope.

> Canadian writer Margaret Atwood wrote in a review for the New York Times, "Ms. Morrison's versatility and technical and emotional range appear to know no bounds. If there were any doubts about her stature as a pre-eminent American novelist, of her own or any other generation, 'Beloved' will put them to rest."

From the 1987 review of Beloved.

Sure, maybe I was a bit hyperbolic, but it is essentially unarguable that Toni Morrison is one of the most important, respected, and lauded writers in American history.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#70

Post by takeout »

ryanmercer wrote: post #46
takeout wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely unfounded, ridiculous, and racist suggestion. Toni Morrison is one of the most revered writers in human history.

>Toni Morrison is one of the most revered writers in human history. I've never even heard of her and none of their works sound remotely familiar nor have I heard of the film her award winning book was adapted from... I'm not sure how accurate that statement is.

It sounds like you don't read much fiction!

Think about it this way—if you came up to a random person and said "Donald Knuth is one of the most revered computer scientists in human history" and they said "well why haven't I heard of them before", would that mean Donald Knuth is a nobody, or that this person just doesn't really have any interest or background in this person's field?

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