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Sacked by a Google algorithm

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Re: Sacked by a Google algorithm

#61

Post by SoftwareMaven »

rbanffy wrote: post #49
eru wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about exponentially increasing ban times, instead of a life-time ban after the third strike? (Perhaps with even a cooling off period, if you behave well for some time.)

That's a brilliant idea, really. I wonder how we could generate an economic incentive for Google to adopt it.

The only way to do that would be for a competitor to implement it and begin gaining traction because of it. Right now, the cost of the wrongfully terminated is less than the cost of wrongfully terminating them and probably always will be unless Google starts loosing people afraid of being wrongfully terminated. That number becomes much larger.

Want to incentivize Google? Convince Bing to implement it and see if Adsense customers convert as a result. If I felt Bing was treating their customers/vendors (ads is a really weird relationship :) better, I would consider using it (since as a search product it has approached Google pretty close).

Re: Sacked by a Google algorithm

#62

Post by rbanffy »

jonprins wrote: post #59
rbanffy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That solves the YouTube part of the problem, but not the AdSense part. Google has for all purposes a monopoly on mass-market web advertising

In that case, blip.tv (per view, content producers can make more money through us than through YouTube). Full disclosure: I am employed by blip.tv.

It's for video content. Bloggers and other site owners have nothing to replace AdSense.

They have, but it's always much more work, often more than a hobby would warrant

Re: Sacked by a Google algorithm

#63

Post by kefs »

locopati wrote: post #26
wildmXranat wrote: post #15

Tough luck. Yes, that might come across as crass, but did they bother reading Google's terms of service? So they will bitch and moan about it, try the appeal process and not a dent will be made in their case. What it boils down to is: if you rely on those earnings to sustain your business, guard against anything that tosses you into a suspicious category. And that is a moving target as well. I do empathize with him,…

Doesn't seem like you have a ton of control over the situation, seeing as the rules as written are almost impossible to break in some manner, the rules are only partially declared, and you cannot police your users who may think they're doing you a favor (note: he did actually discourage his users from clicking).

There is a big difference between discouraging users from clicking, and telling users to click and then discouraging them from clicking.

Re: Sacked by a Google algorithm

#64

Post by dsmithn »

irinotecan wrote: post #6

Moral of the story: Don't make too much ad revenue with AdSense or you will be accused of click fraud, and have no recourse.

What I got out of it was to open up independent Adsense accounts for different websites. If Google decides to shut one down, at least the others won't be affected.

Re: Sacked by a Google algorithm

#65

Post by JoeBracken »

stanleydrew wrote: post #41
motters wrote: post #7

This seems to be a not uncommon tale for people who make money out of Adsense.

Yes. I think the problem is that people don't really understand Adsense. They think they are "earning" money by placing ads on their sites. In reality they are outsourcing the placing of ads on their sites to Google, who manages the customer relationships with advertisers and shares a portion of the revenue with the site owner as an incentive. In agreeing to outsource the ads and relationships, site owners put themse…

I agree there is little understanding by some of how Adsense "works" and how $ from an advertiser ends up in a check to you from Google. Most people don't care however anyone running a business off of Adsense should know in detail how they work or you risk getting your business cut off like this. As others have said diversification of revenue is important especially if you don't have confidence in how the system works - example the stock market.

If you are releasing one or a few videos, revenue from Adsense is just about the only game in town. However if you have enough content that can survive outside of YouTube you create an opportunity to work directly with advertisers. Many video podcasters have moved this way, not hosting videos on Youtube and owning the ad relationships and revenue.

Re: Sacked by a Google algorithm

#67

Post by rbanffy »

rlpb wrote: post #60
rbanffy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My visitors were usually smart and probably figured out on their own (since many of them had blogs - and AdSense accounts - themselves) that clicking on banners meant supporting the site. Too bad Google shoots first and never asks any question. It's really comfortable to live in a space without meaningful competition.

If I were an advertiser, why would I want to advertise on your site, if I know that visitors are supporting you by clicking but have no intention of converting? I care about the effectiveness of my ads. They are far less effective if visitors do this. Ultimately the advertisers are paying for your AdSense income. It may not be your fault, but if you're providing less value to the advertiser, then it seems only fair t…

It would be wonderful if advertisers could pipe conversion rates back into Google so that ads would gravitate towards sites that generated greater conversion rates. This way, sites that have fans that decrease conversion rates will naturally sink to the bottom of the pile without much effort and would bubble up as soon as the behavior changes and conversion rates improve.

It seems a natural solution to the problem. Would you be able to pipe back conversion rates based on where the banner was shown?

Re: Sacked by a Google algorithm

#68

Post by Andrew_Quentin »

_cbsz wrote: post #34
mayank wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But instructing your visitors in some way to click on your ads does cross the line. If you think that crosses the line, then you just gave anyone with access to a small botnet (or who knows how to cleverly use Tor) an easy, cheap way to cut off the income of people who rely on AdSense. And there are a LOT of those. Outright, criminal fraud is one thing, but I would argue that it's unethical to hold up the funds he…

> If you think that crosses the line, then you just gave anyone with access to a small botnet (or who knows how to cleverly use Tor) an easy, cheap way to cut off the income of people who rely on AdSense. And there are a LOT of those. No, he didn't. A "small botnet" or Tor is not particularly useful to force you to violate the Adsense ToS by telling your visitors to click on your ads.

I think his point is that, if invalid clicks is all it takes for an adsense publisher to get banned, then there is nothing to stop your competition from going onto your site and clicking a lot of your ads or get a botnet to do it and get you banned.

If it is a mere algorithm, then it is not unforeseeable, that, due to no fault of your own whatever, but malice of competitors, you can get banned, though, in these cases, I think there would be a good legal argument, not least because the google contract you sign up to is not entirely recognised by some courts, but replaced in many instances by what is or seems reasonable, as, when you sign up to the contract you have no choice but to sign up, thus, there is no equal bargaining power.

Re: Sacked by a Google algorithm

#69

Post by rbanffy »

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #61
rbanffy wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a brilliant idea, really. I wonder how we could generate an economic incentive for Google to adopt it.

The only way to do that would be for a competitor to implement it and begin gaining traction because of it. Right now, the cost of the wrongfully terminated is less than the cost of wrongfully terminating them and probably always will be unless Google starts loosing people afraid of being wrongfully terminated. That number becomes much larger. Want to incentivize Google? Convince Bing to implement it and see if Adsen…

The problem is that Google's customer is not the site that carries the banners, but the advertiser who wants their banners shown. Unless those gravitate towards an ad network that coincidentally provides better service to site owners, those folks are doubly screwed.

Re: Sacked by a Google algorithm

#70

Post by futuremint »

dsmithn wrote: post #64
irinotecan wrote: post #6

Moral of the story: Don't make too much ad revenue with AdSense or you will be accused of click fraud, and have no recourse.

What I got out of it was to open up independent Adsense accounts for different websites. If Google decides to shut one down, at least the others won't be affected.

This. My first thought was "why didn't he use separate accounts?" Of course the mailing address for the checks would be the same. So then get multiple P.O. Boxes. Then I think they require a phone number too? I'm sure Google has some employee who has thought of this.

Also wouldn't surprise me if one person having multiple AdSense accounts is a violation of their terms.

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