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Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

arstechnica.com

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Re: Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

#61

Post by stareatgoats »

kozak wrote: post #58
gbuk2013 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30414955

Yeah, good example of "post-truth" world. Russia is rich and large and influential enough to influence even BBC. In fact, the ideology that drives the Russian side of the conflict indeed has something to do with nazism, while Ukrainians are just protecting their own country. Ukrainians don't fight on non-Ukrainian soil, while Russians do fight on Ukrainian soil. Today, both president and prime minister of Ukraine are…

I sympathize with the tendency to have polarized views when deeply involved in a conflict, especially an armed one. But for the record, this BBC article does not have the common hallmarks of a viewpoint pushed and purchased by the Kremlin, or a post-truth world. On the contrary.

For the large part it comes across as balanced and informed IMO, and your sweeping dismissal does not answer the factual issues it raises, particularly the role of the Azov Battalion and the Patriot of Ukraine organisation, "which considers Jews and other minorities "sub-human" and calls for a white, Christian crusade against them, it sports three Nazi symbols".

In my opinion, this piece on atlanticcouncil.org sorts out the misconceptions: there is in Ukraine no more support for extreme-right or neo-nazi organizations than other European countries (which however is on an alarmingly upward trajectory). However, "More ominously, Ukraine’s far-right, para-military formations and their penchant for vigilantism remain a problem that must be more vigorously countered by the state and their sources of funding investigated thoroughly." [0]

It is really necessary get a grasp of the whole picture.

[0] https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-a...

Re: Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

#62

Post by napolux »

benj111 wrote: post #40
napolux wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Italian here, in the news they said it looks like the rocket was empty. So explosive was probably removed to be used by itself.

The linked article said it didn't have a warhead. Are you saying it didn't have any propellant either? In that case an expensive tube?

According to some sources, no warhead, but there's no mention of propellant.

Some sources say "ready to be armed and used" but with no other detail.

Some others are mentioning Matra as the manufacturer.

Re: Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

#63

Post by mirimir »

baybal2 wrote: post #53
skrebbel wrote: post #6

Anyone with more insight into all of this than me who can explain why they went to fight on the Russian side? I mean, there surely were neo-nazis around on both sides of that conflict, right? Just different flavours? I wonder how you pick who to support if your core ideology is that "people different from us are bad".

I find it surprising that somebody still finds it surprising. Neonazism was for all purposes Putin's de-facto state ideology for Russia since around 2005 or so. The only fig leaf they have is the official denial of connection in between the skinheads and other neonazi groups and the state. That is only skin deep of course https://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/Images/2017/11/23/dbb8470a... Putin is of course afraid of ima…

The Soviet Union was always fundamentally fascist, and so is the current Russian government. Or at least, after the second 1917 revolution, when the gangsters took over. But now more openly kleptocratic.

Re: Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

#64

Post by kozak »

stareatgoats wrote: post #61
kozak wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, good example of "post-truth" world. Russia is rich and large and influential enough to influence even BBC. In fact, the ideology that drives the Russian side of the conflict indeed has something to do with nazism, while Ukrainians are just protecting their own country. Ukrainians don't fight on non-Ukrainian soil, while Russians do fight on Ukrainian soil. Today, both president and prime minister of Ukraine are…

I sympathize with the tendency to have polarized views when deeply involved in a conflict, especially an armed one. But for the record, this BBC article does not have the common hallmarks of a viewpoint pushed and purchased by the Kremlin, or a post-truth world. On the contrary. For the large part it comes across as balanced and informed IMO, and your sweeping dismissal does not answer the factual issues it raises, p…

The problem with the article is that it's balanced between fake propaganda and truth, which makes it unbalanced relatively to pure truth.

Re: Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

#65

Post by pas »

ahje wrote: post #55
phaer wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think those countries stance against liberal ideas like gender equality, lgbt right and so on as well as a rather authoritarian form of government at least in Russia and Hungary might make western European fascists a bit jealous as well.

Very jealous. Russia is simply considered the "good guy", standing up against the perceived oppression from globalism and European federalism. The people of the EU often want to see ourselves as progressive, but we're a very diverse lot and there's a lot of people who would like to take a few steps back in regards to LGBT rights, Pan-Europeanism and multi-culturalism.

The actual popular support [or opposition] for whatever ideas [or against] are usually very different than what strongly consolidated power hierarchies show. (That is in countries where one party gained significant power, eg. in Hungary and Poland.)

Re: Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

#66

Post by EForEndeavour »

kitteh wrote: post #42
toomanybeersies wrote: post #30

How dangerous is one of these things without the surrounding targeting system? And how useful would this be to a foreign government that somehow doesn't have access to other air-to-air missiles? It seems to me like a bit of a sensationalist headline, and the more dangerous weapons are actually the small arms.

The 530 is a SARH missile. It requires a radar system (found in the French Mirage aircraft for example) to lock and paint it's target the entire time for the missile to track and eventually detonate. It would be pretty difficult to do and the acqusition/targeting radar would need to be cooled and energized for the duration of the flight. Launching A2A missiles from the ground is pretty rare but it is possible as evid…

For anyone else not familiar with military hardware: SARH = semi-active radar homing. The missile itself passively detects a radar signal reflected off a target by an external source, such as the launching aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-active_radar_homing

Re: Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

#67

Post by JoeSmith123 »

stareatgoats wrote: post #33
FDS wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn‘t fight on the russian side. For some reason english media mistranslated original press release. https://www.poliziadistato.it/articolo/225d2c47fb2c9ef299497... It says "avevano combattuto nella regione ucraina del Donbass contro gli indipendentisti". So they were fighting against separatists.

This does not seem to be correct, Forza Nuova seems indeed to be supporting the (Russian backed) separatists. According to the Wikipedia article (with sources) [0], the party used to be allied with neo-fascist Svoboda but switched sides during the Donbass conflict and is in return also backed by Russia. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Force_(Italy)#Presence_out...

Official police report looks like much more reliable source than article in Wikipedia (especially an article about politic and such topics).

Re: Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

#68

Post by JoeSmith123 »

mirimir wrote: post #28
FDS wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn‘t fight on the russian side. For some reason english media mistranslated original press release. https://www.poliziadistato.it/articolo/225d2c47fb2c9ef299497... It says "avevano combattuto nella regione ucraina del Donbass contro gli indipendentisti". So they were fighting against separatists.

And even Google translate: > The investigations had begun about a year ago when the police headquarters in Turin, coordinated by the Central Directorate of Prevention Police, had monitored some people linked to political movements of the ultra right and who had fought in the Ukrainian region of Donbass against the separatists. Wouldn't one expect at least that as part of fact checking? Edit: Damn, so perhaps the poli…

Seriously, you prefer wikipedia over official police report?

Re: Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

#69

Post by ryacko »

iagovar wrote: post #50
ryacko wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then Nazism is truly tragic, for those that follow it are the most prone to rejecting others. It seems so trivial, and yet we fall short.

If it wasn't the far-right it would be anything else. It's just a geopolitical game.

How nihilistic, it seemed possible you would be willing to endorse and encourage greater ideals.

Re: Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

#70

Post by mithrn »

kitteh wrote: post #42
toomanybeersies wrote: post #30

How dangerous is one of these things without the surrounding targeting system? And how useful would this be to a foreign government that somehow doesn't have access to other air-to-air missiles? It seems to me like a bit of a sensationalist headline, and the more dangerous weapons are actually the small arms.

The 530 is a SARH missile. It requires a radar system (found in the French Mirage aircraft for example) to lock and paint it's target the entire time for the missile to track and eventually detonate. It would be pretty difficult to do and the acqusition/targeting radar would need to be cooled and energized for the duration of the flight. Launching A2A missiles from the ground is pretty rare but it is possible as evid…

It's become somewhat common to see AAMs fitted/designed to be surfaced launched. See Iris-T SL or Rafael Spyder system. Most Python missiles being produced/retrofitted are for ground launch.
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