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Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

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Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#61
post #2

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are ev…

Why do you think that the keyboard is the problem, and not the indoctrination of "this is the right way to type and posture" leading to further stress? In fact, in my admittedly small sample of others I know who do have problems with their wrists, they were all ones who tried very hard to rigidly conform to the "standard" posture and move only the fingers of the hands instead of the whole arm. They were also people w…

How old are you, if you don't mind sharing?

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#63
post #51

I wonder if this is the audiophile equivalent of computer enthusiasm. I mean, like audiophiles buying gold cables for 10x the price and no reason, and using 20's tech (vacuum tubes) in their amps, selecting individual tubes and all that... So here the keyboard enthusiasts select their switches, key curvatures, materials, etc. and the result might just be some placebo feel good improvement and more noise for everyone…

Not all mechs are noisy. Personally I was having significant pain in my finger joints until I switched to mechs with (fairly quiet) Cherry Brown and Red switches, and trained myself to type mostly without bottoming out the keys.

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#64
post #45
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it can be argued that they aren't more ergonomic than a regular keyboard. If you manage to create an uncomfortable position with a split keyboard you have the luxury to adapt... And I haven't seen people claiming that it is the holy grail, just that it is better. Many otholinear keyboard are in a grid, yes. I guess mostly because it is easy, aesthetics and it fits everyone as good/bad. Many keyboards ha…

I don't have huge hand issues due to ergonomics, but I have experienced some. I have tried most of what is out there: Kinesis Advantage, Maltron, Kinesis Freestyle, Matias Ergo Pro, Microsoft Sculpt, several Vortex... Paradoxically, my best experience is with an Apple Magic Keyboard 2 (and I use Linux). I think that's because it's tiny, so I can move my hands and use mostly index and thumb fingers. Plus, actuation fo…

Please post on HN when you get that project done, I'd love to see what you come up with!

I'm in a somewhat similar situation, where I have a split keyboard with blues. It's pretty good, but the combined height of PCB + plate on top + standoffs and plate below PCB (the 'case' is just two plates above/below the PCB) + switches + keycaps is quite tall. I'm also going to try to make a slim keyboard in the near future.

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#65
post #6
post #2

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are ev…

Kinesis looks good for data entry and such keyboard-only activities, but otherwise, when one hand is using a mouse, I don't think it is comfortable. Any experiences?

In case of the browser, I've augmented it with the Vimium add-on. I've gotten so used to touch-typing that I'm annoyed when I have to reach for the mouse, even despite the inherent delay for reading Vimium's label on a link. That's why I want a touchpad in quick reach. And also for the two-finger scroll with its analog sensitivity.

This keyboard-reliance has led me to another observation, that web devs don't test keyboard scroll on their sites.

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#66
post #51

I wonder if this is the audiophile equivalent of computer enthusiasm. I mean, like audiophiles buying gold cables for 10x the price and no reason, and using 20's tech (vacuum tubes) in their amps, selecting individual tubes and all that... So here the keyboard enthusiasts select their switches, key curvatures, materials, etc. and the result might just be some placebo feel good improvement and more noise for everyone…

There are very clearly noticeable differences between the different keyswitches, and also between different shapes of keycaps. And not just in mechanical keyboards.

I have used a mass-manufactured red (linear quiet) keyboard, a custom split blue (tactile loud/clicky) mechanical keyboards, the keyboard on my current XPS 15, and many years ago a MSI gaming laptop with a SteelSeries-made rubber dome keyboard. I realize these are audiophile terms, but there is a huge difference in how each keyboard feels and how satisfying it is to type on them. It's not just like having slightly 'cripser' etc. audio - the differences are extremely obvious.

The red keyboard sucks for typing; I didn't realize how much until I switched to the blue. They offer no feedback and my WPM and error rate is much higher/lower on the reds. The blues have very solid feedback and feel nice to type on, the sound is also beautiful. The keyboard on the XPS 15 sucks, it's like typing on a piece of styrofoam - but better still than the new MacBook keybaords, which feel like like typing on a piece of wood. The MSI laptop had a very deep keyboard (almost as much key travel as a mechanical one) and the keys were heavy. The pressure required to push them down felt nice, and they bottomed out in a very satisfying way. I only use the MSI laptop a few times a year but I always look forward to typing on it.

If you only drove 4 door sedans (normal rubber domes) you would think that people are crazy for wanting to get their own customized cars in different form factors, but if you drove a sedan and a SUV and a pickup truck and a motorcycle you would know that it's very much not just a 'placebo feel good' difference.

On the other hand if you go to /r/mechanicalkeyboards you'll find weirdos spending $200 on keycaps and cases and $50 on USB cables, or people that collect dozens of keyboards, or people that use 10x3 keyboards (letters + space, no numbers ctrl alt etc.). Those people are the audiophile-type ones. I just have a nice $120 keyboard which I love to use and which will last a decade or more.

You can find audiophile-type stuff for really every category of purchaseable products. I have a beautiful metal $15 fountain pen (Pilot Metropolitan); on /r/fountainpens you'll find weirdos spending $100 on an ugly octagonal pen made with transparent plastic. Here's a video on laundry machine collectors who bring dirty clothes to meets and listen/watch to the laundry machines go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmmmxI-Y_6U

Also, to some people the sound is really pleasing. You may want to try out Bucklespring, which plays the sounds of an old IBM buckling-spring keyboard through your computer speakers, and you might realize why so many people like clicky keyboards. When I'm not using headphones I can hear the blues, when I am wearing headphones the blue switches are muffled and their sound mixes with the sound of Bucklespring. When I take the laptop outside and I'm alone I turn up the speakers a bit; the buckling spring keyboard on its own sounds amazingly good, and helps reduce the type-on-wood feeling of laptop keyboards.

https://github.com/zevv/bucklespring

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#67
post #49

I’ve wanted to make a keyboard, but I’m not sure it’s possible to make something materially better than the kinesis advantage. I switched to it 10 years after my hands would feel numb after typing. I think I might have some problem other people don’t, but even for normal people, I find it hard to believe that a kinesis wouldn’t be better for them as well. I’ve seen some split diy keyboards, but none of them have the…

> Being able to type your password with one button is super cool! Do you really have a button on your keyboard mapped to type your password? If that's the case, I'm horrified. But I secretely wish I had a button like that too...

I have one for my work account. Whenever I have to update it I just overwrite the macro. I figure if it gets compromised they won't think it's my fault and I won't face any consequences :p

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#68
post #51

I wonder if this is the audiophile equivalent of computer enthusiasm. I mean, like audiophiles buying gold cables for 10x the price and no reason, and using 20's tech (vacuum tubes) in their amps, selecting individual tubes and all that... So here the keyboard enthusiasts select their switches, key curvatures, materials, etc. and the result might just be some placebo feel good improvement and more noise for everyone…

> I wonder if this is the audiophile equivalent of computer enthusiasm.

Obviously, there are many similarities, for examples,

* Community-driven

* DIY

* Emphasis on personal paste and preferences

This is why, drop.com is actually a well-known group-buy website that offers BOTH audiophiles AND mechanical keyboards.

> I mean, like audiophiles buying gold cables for 10x the price and no reason, and using 20's tech (vacuum tubes) in their amps, selecting individual tubes and all that...

But there are some important differences as well. Computer enthusiasm is either the delivery of objective performance or personal tastes and preferences. However, a large subset of the audiophile market is pseudoscientific, useless snake-oil that pretends to be an objective improvement.

Using vacuum tubes and selecting them individually is a personal preference, but buying "cryo-treated" vacuum tubes, some questionable power conditioners, and gold cables and actually believing them can have a significant effect (compared to, let's say, spending the money on upgrading the sound source or the acrostics of your room) is pure snake-oil.

On the other hand, computer enthusiasts know exactly what they are buying for, the transparency and competition is radical in the industry, unlike parts of the audiophile market.

> some placebo feel good improvement

There is no placebo effect, as mechanical keyboards users simply say that it's comfortable to type, and I don't see claims about how they can make you type faster (on the other hand, whether advocacy of alternative keyboard layouts are completely placebo effects would be something worth an actual discussion, e.g. I'm currently typing this on Dvorak).

You'll know without question that two mechanical keyboards have different characteristics, and you would have a personal preference. On the other hand, the same cannot often be said for some audio "equipment" such as a gold cable.

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#69
post #20
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are tons and tons of ortholinear diy-boards floating around. The problem with curved boards is manufacturing (for diy) and the pcb. But 3D printing solved the first problem and they are mostly soldered with wires rather than experimenting with pcbs. So there are a few curved boards out there as well. Such as https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform/blob/master/R... As for touchpads they kind of suck as an…

> But 3D printing solved the first problem and they are mostly soldered with wires rather than experimenting with pcbs. It doesn't really. Modern diy culture is ultimately about publishing. That is what puts you on somewhat equal footing with a large entity. What we mostly have with 3d printing is a do-it-for-yourself culture. That is why every institution will have an exclusive maker space, where you will get reprim…

Doing a keyboard is easy. Doing it well is surprisingly hard.

Canned firmwares solve a lot of bootstrapping problems, and there are spoon-feed tutorials to get a working PCB, but you run into a lot of real-world constraints soon.

While loose wiring allows for custom experimentation of some designs, ergonomic 3D shapes, it also tends to increase complexity of assembly and risk of things going wrong (shorts and loose connections) It's also a mess if you want custom lighting. So you tend to stick to PCB-based designs for anything beyond one-off projects.

Commercial quality mounting plates and cases are more of an impediment than the electronics. Yeah, you can make a science fair project, but for something you're using 12 hours a day for years, people want a point of pride. Want one 104-key switch mounting plate cut? It's probably going to be over $100. Bespoke CNC milled cases can be over $500. Since there are commercial offerings now for many popular sizes, it's easier to say "I'll make a slight riff on the existing 60% size, so people can use a cheap case, than to try a zesty new layout that means a $400 admission charge."

Note this is from an enthusiast short-run-of-kits perspective. If you're going for commercial production, then you have issues with sourcing and manufacturers. We're now into year five of waiting for the Matias corporation to get new keycap designs they promised to market.

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#70
post #51

I wonder if this is the audiophile equivalent of computer enthusiasm. I mean, like audiophiles buying gold cables for 10x the price and no reason, and using 20's tech (vacuum tubes) in their amps, selecting individual tubes and all that... So here the keyboard enthusiasts select their switches, key curvatures, materials, etc. and the result might just be some placebo feel good improvement and more noise for everyone…

There are very clearly noticeable differences between the different keyswitches, and also between different shapes of keycaps. And not just in mechanical keyboards. I have used a mass-manufactured red (linear quiet) keyboard, a custom split blue (tactile loud/clicky) mechanical keyboards, the keyboard on my current XPS 15, and many years ago a MSI gaming laptop with a SteelSeries-made rubber dome keyboard. I realize…

> Those people are the audiophile-type ones.

At least what I've seen feels to me more like casemodders with PCs, people putting decals or body-kits on their cars, or collectors ... It's more about making something their own and making it look cool, not pretending it works that much better.

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