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Why do you host offensive content?

nearlyfreespeech.net

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Re: Why do you host offensive content?

#61

Post by Frondo »

djsumdog wrote: post #45
Nursie wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to the people gunned down in NZ with a rifle covered in 'chan slogans ... ? I'm not saying censorship is good, let's go full-on NewSpeak here, or even that I have any sort of solution to propose. I just don't think this ideal, that censorship is necessarily always bad and that the best, only way to fight evil ideas is with discussion and better ideas ... I don't think holds up to scrutiny in the face of rea…

Do you blame 4chan? Really? An emotionally disturbed person may have more input today in the Internet age, but the majority of 4chan users don't go out shooting mosques. This was one fucked up Australian, from a country of over 30 million; and the first Aussie to commit a mass shooting since 1996. I do not think it's right to place the blame on a bunch of random people saying things. They didn't murder all those peop…

Speech leads to violence, and even a somewhat limited reading of the history of genocides in the 20th century ought to make it difficult to dispute that.

If the Hutus hadn't been broadcasting anti-Tutsi sentiment for a few hundred days before the violence, it's tough to say that the Hutus would've suddenly risen up to kill about 70% of the Tutsi population there all of a sudden.

Re: Why do you host offensive content?

#62

Post by ataturk »

Nursie wrote: post #30
captainredbeard wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The idea that good ideas will win, and that common sense and rationality will take the day, are not really supported by what we see around the net.” Maybe you’re wrong?

Tell that to the people gunned down in NZ with a rifle covered in 'chan slogans ... ? I'm not saying censorship is good, let's go full-on NewSpeak here, or even that I have any sort of solution to propose. I just don't think this ideal, that censorship is necessarily always bad and that the best, only way to fight evil ideas is with discussion and better ideas ... I don't think holds up to scrutiny in the face of rea…

My understanding is that he put those slogans on the gun because his intent was to cause censorship, which the NZ government then obliged.

Re: Why do you host offensive content?

#63

Post by ketzo »

I see this argument so, so frequently -- that repugnant views need to be given a platform, that heinous and disgusting content must be allowed a space, so that everyone can see it and fight against it!

Since when the fuck is that how the internet works?

If Stormfront hosts a site on NFS.net, who do you think visits that site? Bright young progressives valiantly carrying a banner of social justice?

No. Fucking neo-Nazis visit the Stormfront website, because, and this is important, _it's a platform for fucking neo-Nazis_.

Christchurch. Charlottesville. Numerous terrorists have indicated very clearly that they were radicalized online. Why the fuck is it somehow your responsibility to provide these people a platform to spread their poison?

To end my rant, here's that ridiculous quote that always gets tossed around in these discussions:

> "Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants; electric light the most efficient policeman."

Actually, as it happens, the best disinfectant is a harsh chemical, and the most efficient policeman is a fucking policeman. The internet is not a place of light and exposure. It is a place where disgusting ideologies can hide, quietly attract followers, and conspire to murder people.

Consider how powerful that sunlight was the next time a right-wing terrorist screams about blood and soil while brandishing an AR.

I'm sorry the tone of this is so angry. NFS is a great service -- I just can't stand this pitiful justification for aiding radicalization and eventual violence. There is a line you can draw. It is up to you to draw it.

Re: Why do you host offensive content?

#64

Post by mr_spothawk »

Nursie wrote: post #41
djsumdog wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a time when the cesspit were all the people promoting the debauchery of homosexuality, or the idea that blacks were somehow equal to whites in intelligence and genetic disposition. These were greatly offensive statements at one time. People were ridiculed and deplatformed for having them. Translate the Bible into a barbaric language like German or English? That caused great offense. People were excommunicat…

> "By banning speech is to say, "I agree people are too stupid to make their own decisions. Let's make the world 'safe' for them and ban ideas I don't agree with." 1. People are stupid. Really, really stupid. Especially when given the means to surround and reinforce themselves with other idiots. See for example - antivax and alt-med in general, chemtrails any number of ridiculous conspiracy theories that propagate th…

> These people

I'm not sure what group of people you just Other'd, but I am suggesting that you re-read your post and consider:

a) whether you still hold the view you espoused 13 minutes ago that some group of humans are non-thinking.

b) whether the message you're trying to make could be more clearly articulated.

to me, it reads like you're making really broad statements which you believe to be immune to any challenge or reasoning.

Re: Why do you host offensive content?

#65

Post by stcredzero »

waynecochran wrote: post #10

If it is offensive because it stems from "bad ideas" then it is imperative that it is posted in the "public market of ideas" so it can be exposed and refuted. If it is not posted then folks will not know how to refute it when it crops up again -- and it will. Free Speech for bad ideas is as important as free speech for good ideas. Don't be offended. That's your choice. P.S. This doesn't mean that everything offensive…

Free Speech for bad ideas is as important as free speech for good ideas.

It's a good idea to be wary of the sneaking-in of bad ideas by packaging them with good ideas. In 2019, this applies to even some of the most reprehensible ones. (For example: Politics through intimidation and violent assault.) Ideologies and movements aren't monoliths. The bad parts of them can be teased apart and criticized, without making you an opponent of all of the overarching ideas and principles. Anyone who tries to sell you on the "all or nothing" idea is (perhaps unwittingly) engaging in this packaging of bad ideas.

downvote within 15 seconds of posting ... you are speedy in your thoughtlessness.

Here is the pattern that I often see around that: 2 or 3 rapid, thoughtless downvotes, followed by more upvotes. Be courageous, and take the long view. (Also, we're not supposed to talk about this meta stuff around here, according to the guidelines, but I'm giving you a heads up.)

Re: Why do you host offensive content?

#66

Post by UnFleshedOne »

Nursie wrote: post #7

> "Finally, censorship is always bad, for a variety of well understood reasons that we don't need to repeat here. But in the case of some types of content, it has special dangers. When you censor a web site based on the extreme or dangerous views of its creator(s), you haven't stopped those people from thinking that way. You haven't made them go away. You certainly haven't stopped the people who hold those views from…

This might be true. Your logic applies to all such cases though. Right to vote suffers from exactly the same drawbacks as right for speech. And authoritarianism has the same tempting benefits as censorship -- you can stop people with bad ideas from messing things up. And, just like with censorship, one day you might end up on the wrong end of the system, and not necessarily because your ideas are bad.

Re: Why do you host offensive content?

#67

Post by waynecochran »

UncleMeat wrote: post #58
waynecochran wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how to codify this, but there does seem to be some things that are just simply harmful with no benefit. For example, libel against a private individual.

Yes, and to lots of us we believe that certain ideas are simply harmful with no benefit. We don't disagree on the principles. We disagree on where the lines are drawn.

Some have suggested one place a line can be drawn: It's always OK to "attack" an "idea" but never to "attack" an individual.

Re: Why do you host offensive content?

#68

Post by dlivingston »

UncleMeat wrote: post #55
waynecochran wrote: post #10

If it is offensive because it stems from "bad ideas" then it is imperative that it is posted in the "public market of ideas" so it can be exposed and refuted. If it is not posted then folks will not know how to refute it when it crops up again -- and it will. Free Speech for bad ideas is as important as free speech for good ideas. Don't be offended. That's your choice. P.S. This doesn't mean that everything offensive…

We've known how to refute genocidal racism for ages. The ideas aren't new and the reasons why they are garbage aren't new. Yet these ideas still exist and still spread. Why has the market of ideas not destroyed these ideas? If the market cannot destroy even the most terrible ideas that humans have ever devised, what does that really say about the market?

And who is to be the censor? Would you be so complacent if I were the censor, dictating what you can and cannot read, see, and hear?

Re: Why do you host offensive content?

#69

Post by whiddershins »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #52
waynecochran wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how to codify this, but there does seem to be some things that are just simply harmful with no benefit. For example, libel against a private individual.

Sure, but recognize that the line is entirely arbitrary. The only difference between child pornography, libel, white supremacist content and being mean is that people got together and said "you know what, this seems like just a bit too far". This doesn't mean that we shouldn't draw lines between speech we're okay with and speech we're not. Literally every human being on the planet does it! This is why I don't like "m…

I am not sure you are correct.

Libel has a pretty narrow definition and clearly leaves the realm of opinions and ideas to a different realm of willfully lying about someone with the intent to harm them personally.

The fact that we remove libel protections from public figures including politicians already makes this an extremely narrow subset of speech.

Arguing that this is just another example of an arbitrary line within a grey area seems like a rhetorical device to overemphasize the subjectivity of speech protections in pursuit of making them no longer able to be consistently protected.

Re: Why do you host offensive content?

#70

Post by root_axis »

dlivingston wrote: post #68
UncleMeat wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've known how to refute genocidal racism for ages. The ideas aren't new and the reasons why they are garbage aren't new. Yet these ideas still exist and still spread. Why has the market of ideas not destroyed these ideas? If the market cannot destroy even the most terrible ideas that humans have ever devised, what does that really say about the market?

And who is to be the censor? Would you be so complacent if I were the censor, dictating what you can and cannot read, see, and hear?

The censor is the owner of the platform broadcasting the content. If I didn't like your censorship practices then I wouldn't use your platform.
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