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Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

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Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#61

Post by filoleg »

bllguo wrote: post #59
filoleg wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the real leverage. Hong Kong's true potential is still there to be uncovered, and people remember how flourishing it was back then. Imagine how it could all blow up to even higher highs if the PRC rule was completely gone from Hong Kong. I feel like if that gate opens in the near future (i know, wishful thinking), HK will have its new golden age, as companies and individuals will not need to worry about PRC in…

HK used to flourish because it was the access point between China and the West. If they completely severed ties with China there is no value proposition anymore... what "higher highs" are you anticipating, exactly?

>If they completely severed ties with China there is no value proposition anymore

Becoming independent from China != completely severing ties with China. Also, I think these days a better served purpose of HK is as the access point to the whole Asian/SEA region, rather than the access point to China alone.

Also, HK seems to be (from an outsider perspective) one of the most (if not the most) "westernized" cities in the region, with the proliferation of English language and all, so I can totally see it becoming the central hub in the Asian/SEA region for a lot of companies from the west.

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#62

Post by IAmEveryone »

inlined wrote: post #42
sandworm101 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> During talks with Thatcher, China planned to invade and seize Hong Kong if the negotiations set off unrest in the colony. Thatcher later said that Deng told her bluntly that China could easily take Hong Kong by force, stating that "I could walk in and take the whole lot this afternoon", to which she replied that "there is nothing I could do to stop you, but the eyes of the world would now know what China is like".…

It amazes me when suddenly something matters or it doesn’t. There were outcries over Crimea until there suddenly weren’t. There were no outcries over Syria until there suddenly were.

Economic sanctions against Russia have not changed, nor have other consequences of their action in Crimea, such as their exclusion from G7 (formerly G8, formerly G7+1).

Sure, the topic has disappeared from the news. But that does not mean everything is back to normal. It just indicates the situation is frozen.

More generally, territorial expansion by force has been extremely rare in recent history, compared to previous times. That would indicate that the practice generally being frowned upon, and the available actions in response, are somewhat effective.

As to Syria, I remember hearing about it on the first day of protests. That's not to say it went well in any meaning of the word–there really aren't any good options once a government has decided to brutalise its own people. But it did get attention.

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#63

Post by soruly »

"To say that nothing is true, is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say that everything is permitted, is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic." -- Assassin's Creed

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#64

Post by everybodyknows »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #53
filoleg wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the situation at hand is very different. Crimea, unlike Hong Kong, isn't an alpha+ city that is one of the most important financial hubs in the world. While capturing Crimea by RF was extremely reprehensible, there was not much at stake there for any side not directly involved in the conflict. All there was in Crimea situation is just a geopolitical projection of power. With Hong Kong, the stakes are way…

> While capturing Crimea by RF was extremely reprehensible, there was not much at stake there for any side not directly involved in the conflict. There was something else still: the population of Crimea was mostly Russian. Like, really Russian. Using only Russian language, calling hryvnas rubles, and in general feeling Russian. Many of these people actually liked the idea of Crimea being a part of Russia (at least be…

The Tatar minority in Crimea, on the other hand, did not like the idea of being Russian subjects much at all.

https://newrepublic.com/article/116814/crimean-tatars-primer...

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#65

Post by IAmEveryone »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #2

You might almost think it was intended to provoke a reaction. So much so it smells like a false flag op. They were left pretty much alone for about 12 hours, while they broke windows and shutters, since the first reports of broken windows came last night. To justify the "entirely necessary but unavoidable" reaction coming soon?

"False flag" gets thrown around far too often, compared to the number of proven cases. And, yes, we would have some amount of history to study for such cases: many files of bygone governments like East Germany, the Nazis, or Apartheid South Africa, as well as de-classified files in the US and other western nations.

The problem with insinuating "false flag" is that it gives everyone license to believe whatever better fits their existing narrative. I remember the possibility being raised, on HN, for the murder in Charlottesville, for example.

In this specific case, it is quite obviously false. Entering & occupying the legislative chamber, with no injuries and rather minor damages, just isn't enough of a pretext for a violent reaction to be considered proportional.

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#66

Post by soruly »

jedberg wrote: post #21

I'm honestly surprised it took this long to see something like this. I remember the day Hong Kong was turned over to China. I watched it live on the news. The Hong Kong people were most definitely not happy. I'll bet at least 1/3 of the protestors weren't even born when that happened. But they have access to both oral and written history about how things used to be. Information is a powerful thing. I hope they succee…

twenty years ago, many believed in the idea "One country, two systems", "50 years unchanged"

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#67

Post by Mikeb85 »

jedberg wrote: post #51
filoleg wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the situation at hand is very different. Crimea, unlike Hong Kong, isn't an alpha+ city that is one of the most important financial hubs in the world. While capturing Crimea by RF was extremely reprehensible, there was not much at stake there for any side not directly involved in the conflict. All there was in Crimea situation is just a geopolitical projection of power. With Hong Kong, the stakes are way…

The unfortunate truth is that Hong Kong isn't nearly as important to global banking as it once was. China has a done a really great job handicapping them, for this very reason. So that it would be easier to absorb them.

They didn't handicap them. HK's status was entirely based on the fact that it was the entry to do business with China. Shanghai and China becoming more open (for example, foreign investors being able to invest in Chinese securities) made HK less important, and the Umbrella Revolution made HK less relevant (bankers don't like risk).

Edit - And this most recent round of demonstrations is the nail in the coffin. No business would ever do business in HK now with the political uncertainty, easier to simply set up shop in Shanghai or form a JV.

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#68

Post by koenigdavidmj »

nkoren wrote: post #7
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #2

You might almost think it was intended to provoke a reaction. So much so it smells like a false flag op. They were left pretty much alone for about 12 hours, while they broke windows and shutters, since the first reports of broken windows came last night. To justify the "entirely necessary but unavoidable" reaction coming soon?

False flag op was my instant reaction as well. The original protestors were fastidious in their civic-mindedness. These are not them. These protestors are producing made-to-order photos for the Chinese press. When China steps in to "restore order", this will be why.

My guess is that this is legitimate, but a strategy like the Republicans used in Northern Ireland. Everyone knows that your little city can't defeat the PLA. What you can do is make yourself ungovernable without making China do things that would tarnish their world reputation. If China quells this protest, but in the process turns Hong Kong into another Xinjiang (including the "reeducation" camps for protesters, and the invasive surveillance on the rest of them, most of whom were alive during British rule), all in violation of the treaty with the UK, then they lose.

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#69

Post by Mikeb85 »

everybodyknows wrote: post #64
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While capturing Crimea by RF was extremely reprehensible, there was not much at stake there for any side not directly involved in the conflict. There was something else still: the population of Crimea was mostly Russian. Like, really Russian. Using only Russian language, calling hryvnas rubles, and in general feeling Russian. Many of these people actually liked the idea of Crimea being a part of Russia (at least be…

The Tatar minority in Crimea, on the other hand, did not like the idea of being Russian subjects much at all. https://newrepublic.com/article/116814/crimean-tatars-primer...

So a minority should dictate international relations? A minority that aren't even indigenous and whose only history of statehood was being a vassal of the Ottomans that captured and sold Slavs as slaves... Why should they dictate what happens between Ukraine or Russia?

Re: Hong Kong protesters occupy legislative chamber

#70

Post by dang »

tempguy9999 wrote: post #60
vkou wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. How do you know that is actually done by the protestors, or some unaffiliated hooligans? 2. How do you know that the news coverage of the event will accurately make a distinction between the two? My experience with this is that the distinction that is made is always conveniently aligned with the political leanings of the news source. Postulate: Maybe the 'peaceful' versus 'non-peaceful' demonstrations isn't actual…

Your posts baffle me I'm afraid. You ask "[...] peaceful, fastidiously civic-minded, or [...] a bunch of hooligans" You then ask how I really know whether it's being done by either, well, if it's breaking windows it's hooligans. If it's not it's not. I gave you an answer. You then say "Maybe the 'peaceful' versus 'non-peaceful' demonstrations isn't actually a relevant dimension" So you're saying it doesn't matter, th…

Would you please not cross into flamewar on this topic again? or any topic? We had a long conversation about this recently. It's not ok to just resume.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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