Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate • Hacker News Board

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#61

Post by tjr » Mon, Dec 13, 2010, 6:18 PM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #56

I've seen the following argument a thousand times: "Well the marginal cost of a copy of [some digital good] is 0 so it isn't stealing!" That argument is actually completly irrelevant. I took a train the other night, and there were only 2 people in my whole car. The previous week it was packed. Both times I had to buy a ticket at the same price. If you don't see what that has to do with pirating music (or software, or…

I've worked on numerous music recording projects. In many cases, I did everything by myself. In one case, I hired (and learned from) some of the very best in the industry, and between my partner and I, incurred approximately $20,000 in costs... and had an awesome time doing so.

But even when I do everything myself, I'm using high-end equipment and software that I've paid thousands of dollars for. It's not free of charge for me to be able to record music. And even if I were to deem those to be irrelevant sunk costs, to assume that my recordings ought to be free of charge just because they easily can be copied suggests that my time and expertise is worthless, if nothing else.

[Edit: of course, I'm just some random guy on the internet, and certainly not nor attempting to be a full-time musician. I'm presently content to make money building software, and any income that results from my music is just a bonus. Full-time musicians surely feel even more strongly about such matters.]

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#62

Post by endtime » Mon, Dec 13, 2010, 6:21 PM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #56

I've seen the following argument a thousand times: "Well the marginal cost of a copy of [some digital good] is 0 so it isn't stealing!" That argument is actually completly irrelevant. I took a train the other night, and there were only 2 people in my whole car. The previous week it was packed. Both times I had to buy a ticket at the same price. If you don't see what that has to do with pirating music (or software, or…

I don't think many people make only the case that the marginal cost is 0. But when the marginal cost is zero, and I wouldn't have bought the thing anyway (e.g. Photoshop), and when it's a non-scarce good, I really struggle to see the harm.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#63

Post by krschultz » Mon, Dec 13, 2010, 6:22 PM UTC

tjr wrote: post #61

krschultz wrote: post #56

I've seen the following argument a thousand times: "Well the marginal cost of a copy of [some digital good] is 0 so it isn't stealing!" That argument is actually completly irrelevant. I took a train the other night, and there were only 2 people in my whole car. The previous week it was packed. Both times I had to buy a ticket at the same price. If you don't see what that has to do with pirating music (or software, or…

I've worked on numerous music recording projects. In many cases, I did everything by myself. In one case, I hired (and learned from) some of the very best in the industry, and between my partner and I, incurred approximately $20,000 in costs... and had an awesome time doing so. But even when I do everything myself, I'm using high-end equipment and software that I've paid thousands of dollars for. It's not free of cha…

Exactly. I'm not a muscian (I'm freaking terrible at anything involved with music), and I have no stake in this game. But software development is the same freaking business model, but for some reason we don't collectively take a stand against piracy.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#64

Post by wwortiz » Mon, Dec 13, 2010, 6:25 PM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #56

I've seen the following argument a thousand times: "Well the marginal cost of a copy of [some digital good] is 0 so it isn't stealing!" That argument is actually completly irrelevant. I took a train the other night, and there were only 2 people in my whole car. The previous week it was packed. Both times I had to buy a ticket at the same price. If you don't see what that has to do with pirating music (or software, or…

From the article:

>“Books are priced too high,” said Berntsen when justifying his work. “One of the reasons why the pirate world is so big, is that publishers take crazy prices for something that isn’t even in physical form.”

This is actually one of the better arguments in favor of piracy I have seen, though I'm sure most people don't see their pirating this way, pirating books isn't really the solution, and it is quite a bit misguided.

The specifics of digital books is a little bit different from music, you do have those fixed costs but the argument is that the marginal costs make up for it. What a good amount of people don't realize is that with many books the marginal costs are actually pretty close to zero so an ebook doesn't really cost that much less to make.

My personal problem with digital books, which I avoid by going to used book stores (So I guess I'm not really supporting anyone other than the book store), is that some publishers think there should be a convenience charge to the customer in order to obtain a digital copy, I believe in no way should an ebook cost more than the cheapest copy (be it paperback or hardback) available from the same store new.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#65

Post by chc » Mon, Dec 13, 2010, 6:26 PM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #38

WillyF wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an avid fly fisherman, I completely agree; however, it's often very difficult for people to conceptualize that wildlife is a limited resource. How does my taking a fish that is a half inch under the limit really hurt anyone? What about an extra fish? Or fishing after dark when it's illegal? The negative effects are often extremely far removed from the initial act. That doesn't make it ok, but it does explain why m…

This is tragedy of the commons -- if one person does it, there is no real harm but if everyone does it then there will be no fish left for anyone. A lot of people can conceptualize this but many others rely on the fact that other people don't break the rules. Music piracy is similar. Piracy works right now because there are enough people buying music and the margins are high enough that those legitimate buyers are su…

Even erstwhile pirates often buy music. In fact, studies have shown that pirates are actually the music industry's biggest supporters: http://arstechnica.com/media/news/2009/04/study-pirates-buy-...

There are some devout pirates who simply will not buy, but I suspect they would not buy even if they had another option — these are the people who would tape songs off the radio and copy their friends' CDs. They're either people who just refuse to pay for things or too poor to pay for things. But you can't generalize this to "pirates."

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#66

Post by tjr » Mon, Dec 13, 2010, 6:26 PM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #63

tjr wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked on numerous music recording projects. In many cases, I did everything by myself. In one case, I hired (and learned from) some of the very best in the industry, and between my partner and I, incurred approximately $20,000 in costs... and had an awesome time doing so. But even when I do everything myself, I'm using high-end equipment and software that I've paid thousands of dollars for. It's not free of cha…

Exactly. I'm not a muscian (I'm freaking terrible at anything involved with music), and I have no stake in this game. But software development is the same freaking business model, but for some reason we don't collectively take a stand against piracy.

As a professional software developer, I've given my software work away free of charge, e.g., as a volunteer for Project GNU. I see nothing wrong with that, but I think it ought to be my own choice if I want to spend time working on something and then make it available free of charge, or if I want to sell copies of it.

Likewise, I see nothing wrong with musicians giving away copies of music free of charge (and I've done so), but it should be their choice.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#67

Post by icefox » Mon, Dec 13, 2010, 6:26 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #28

showerst wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that it depends on your definition of 'foreseeable'. One of the first markets I can see this disrupting are things like war-gaming miniatures, and board gaming pieces, which have a HUGE markup, but could be reproduced in plastic relatively easily after a more few generations of this tech. I'm not sure about patents per-se, but it's certainly an intellectual property issue. Once these printers gain the ability…

This made me think of what is potentially a very large market - kids toys. As any parent will tell you, an awful lot of toys (especially for young kids) are cheap bits of plastic where the only "value" is the associated licensing of a brand/character from someone like Disney.

In the transformers toy world I have been watching this and wondering what it will do. What does it mean to collectors when anyone can just print off that old toy they had as a kid? How about the brand new toy that just came out? On the flip side it opens the world for accessories and addons to existing toys like never before. Or even for all new toys that fit into the existing toy worlds, enhancing the brand if you will.

More down to earth and something you can make today with any of those: cookie cutters in any shape you want.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#68

Post by krschultz » Mon, Dec 13, 2010, 6:28 PM UTC

chc wrote: post #59

krschultz wrote: post #56

I've seen the following argument a thousand times: "Well the marginal cost of a copy of [some digital good] is 0 so it isn't stealing!" That argument is actually completly irrelevant. I took a train the other night, and there were only 2 people in my whole car. The previous week it was packed. Both times I had to buy a ticket at the same price. If you don't see what that has to do with pirating music (or software, or…

You're repeating the big media newspeak. "Breaking the law" is not identical to "stealing." If you enter a place you are not allowed to be but do not deprive anybody else of property already in his custody, you are committing trespass and any number of other crimes, but you are emphatically not stealing. So please correct everyone you see making that argument.

Agreed, but what word would you use? We aren't trespassing when we use bittorrent. And I know people who have been attacked by pirates wielding guns onto their ships, so I just feel strange equating clicking on a link with a guy shooting a civilian with an AK47.

So I equate it to "theft of services". Let's say I get a massage, and then I just walk out the door and don't pay for it. I have clearly stolen that person's valuable time. Which isn't a perfect analogy becuase they have finite time vs being able to make infinite copies, but either way someone worked hard with the intention of getting paid for it, and there are people out there depriving them of the money they would have gotten (and please don't say "but I wouldn't have bought it anyway! which is also crap, becuase most people are downloading music they would have bought, its just the nature of blockbusters vs the long tail). So I don't know what the word is, but it is definitely closer to theft of services than anything else I can think of.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#69

Post by potatolicious » Mon, Dec 13, 2010, 6:31 PM UTC

chc wrote: post #59

krschultz wrote: post #56

I've seen the following argument a thousand times: "Well the marginal cost of a copy of [some digital good] is 0 so it isn't stealing!" That argument is actually completly irrelevant. I took a train the other night, and there were only 2 people in my whole car. The previous week it was packed. Both times I had to buy a ticket at the same price. If you don't see what that has to do with pirating music (or software, or…

You're repeating the big media newspeak. "Breaking the law" is not identical to "stealing." If you enter a place you are not allowed to be but do not deprive anybody else of property already in his custody, you are committing trespass and any number of other crimes, but you are emphatically not stealing. So please correct everyone you see making that argument.

> ""Breaking the law" is not identical to "stealing.""

You are technically correct (according to Futurama, the best kind of correct).

But you're also repeating the digital-communist newspeak also. "Piracy is not stealing" is not identical to "Piracy is not wrong". I realize that's not the position you're trying to push, but bear in mind that "Piracy is not stealing" is way too often used to justify piracy itself, as if mere infringement makes it morally acceptable, but stealing is not.

Associating piracy with stealing is problematic, technically incorrect, but is not entirely without merit.

Similarly, dissociating piracy from stealing is problematic but not entirely without merit.

The "I'm just copying your couch" argument that the internet likes to make is about as sensical as the "You wouldn't steal from a store would you?" that the MPAA/RIAA like to make. Both are attempting to use weasel words to justify their own position.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#70

Post by chc » Mon, Dec 13, 2010, 6:33 PM UTC

flawawa2 wrote: post #46

rmc wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm waiting for the next set of excuses. I use an operating system (Ubuntu Linux) that doesn't support the main digital music download software and live in a country (Ireland) where choice is limited. There are easily a billion people who can't legally purchase mainstream american music.

Then don't. You don't have to. Listen to the radio. Record the radio (in many countries that is legal). Listen to Youtube or streams. Listen to free music!

Indeed, he follows your advice, "then don't [purchase the music]." Instead of that unavailable option, he takes the most convenient one available to him. There is a lesson in this.