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Ask YC: Why the degree?

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Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#61

Post by gnaritas »

Maro wrote: post #37
matthewking wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK I can understand it from that perspective, it's not that there's so much weight being put on a degree, but rather its used for lack of other filters, when there's lots of applicants. Doesn't sound very accurate, but I can see the reason why.

For example, the P(A | B) notation is something you learn at a University Probability class. A good feeling for elementary probability thoery is something that makes you much better at modeling, understanding and predicting the world, and not just as a programmer. And there's lots of other classes like that in a Uni. curriculum (although the overall percentage of really useful classes is in my estimate only 25-50%).…

"normal people who want to learn such things choose to go to school"

That's a load of crap. Normal people who want to learn such things pick up a book and read about it. Only very young people consider "going to school" a viable option. Normal people have jobs, kids, and responsibilities and don't have time to go to school every time they pick up a new interest.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#62

Post by [deleted] »

diego wrote: post #45
kashif wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumption will only allow you to pick based on a relative standard not an absolute one. Also, a degree being an eligibility criteria makes no sense. If you want to hire well then you should be willing to meet any relevant candidate. So in effect, with a degree being a REQUIREMENT you are actually lowering the pool of people who will apply and hence reducing your probability not increasing it.

The most desirable companies get so many resumes that they need to filter out most of them. I used to work for a popular search engine before Google came into the picture. As an engineer I had to interview people every week. HR handed me lots of resumes from people with CS degrees from top universities for phone screening. They didn't bother with the rest unless someone was heavily recommended by a trusted source.

[deleted]

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#63

Post by maxklein »

LPTS wrote: post #57
maxklein wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is this: There are some things that ones does not know that one does not know. And only in a formal teaching environment is one introduced to these topics. Most schools give a healthy dose of general knowledge together with the domain specific knowledge. And most self learners tend to stick to domain specific topics. I don't know how self taught you are, but 100% of my income comes from things I learned mys…

I went to college and was a semester away from graduating. Here is my education history. I studied music and philosophy not computers. Anyway I was self taught enough that in my senior year contemporary philosophy of mind class (which I studied independently because it was my interest before the class was offered), the professor asked me to proofread and critique the final rather then take it. I never took notes but…

I believe in people who execute. The tasks you have to do in a standard job are for the most part VERY similar to those in school. Little creativity is required, just follow the rules and deliver. People who cannot finish a college degree may be geniuses, but what use is a genius to a big company if the genius never finishes a project but gets bored after a few weeks?

University is a free place. Come and go as you please, just write the exams. Those geniuses should have no problem doing that, no?

A company needs a good mix of the following:

1. Slow and steady worker 2. Charming and friendly people 3. People with clever ideas who know how to explain their ideas properly

Some helter skelter genius with strong opinions and a low ability to complete projects is exactly the wrong type of person for a company.

And the right kind of person to start an own business.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#64

Post by vaksel »

I can see requiring a degree if you want someone from a good university...Stanford, MIT...that way you know from the get go that you are getting a smart person.

But in reality neither that, nor job experience really matters. Why? Because a person can write anything they want on their resume and you'll never know that they are BSing

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#65

Post by gnaritas »

maxklein wrote: post #63
LPTS wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to college and was a semester away from graduating. Here is my education history. I studied music and philosophy not computers. Anyway I was self taught enough that in my senior year contemporary philosophy of mind class (which I studied independently because it was my interest before the class was offered), the professor asked me to proofread and critique the final rather then take it. I never took notes but…

I believe in people who execute. The tasks you have to do in a standard job are for the most part VERY similar to those in school. Little creativity is required, just follow the rules and deliver. People who cannot finish a college degree may be geniuses, but what use is a genius to a big company if the genius never finishes a project but gets bored after a few weeks? University is a free place. Come and go as you pl…

It's a false assumption that not going to college means a person can't finish something. Fact is, MOST people don't go to college and many of them don't do it for financial or family reasons. College isn't like high school, it's not available to everyone for free. Many many smart people skip college and that's not going to change any time soon.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#66

Post by mrtron »

LPTS wrote: post #24
mrtron wrote: post #19

"I know several people that have degree's in computer science, and none have any magical abilities that you only pickup at university." I think you are shortchanging the value of a formal education. You are forced to learn things you don't necessarily enjoy. For example, I was forced to take a few stats courses which I found extremely boring, but recently at work it was incredibly valuable. I know I thought I was a g…

I think you're shortchanging the value of being autodidactic. The paper signifies an accomplishment that has nothing to do with actual ability. This obsession with degrees is a fetish. Any decently self teaching person is going to wade through the boring stuff on their own anyway. That's a straw man. In fact, you needing the pressures of deadlines and professors to get you to work, that's more indicative of you not b…

People who can self teach well are the minority, and many of those people still go to university/college. I am not shortchanging the value whatsoever.

I think being autodidactic is incredibly valuable - but I don't believe whether or not you have a degree is a good indicator of that. That skill is also incredibly hard to determine from a resume or interview. When you are hiring commonly you have once piece of paper to look at and then a 30 minute interview to evaluate the person. Whether you like it or not, the majority of people doing this will filter by degree and institution. If you can think of a better process, create a HR startup I am sure it would be amazingly successful! Many companies realize that the hiring process is flawed but there currently are few options.

I also disagree that educational institutions "calcify mediocrity".

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#67

Post by maxklein »

gnaritas wrote: post #65
maxklein wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe in people who execute. The tasks you have to do in a standard job are for the most part VERY similar to those in school. Little creativity is required, just follow the rules and deliver. People who cannot finish a college degree may be geniuses, but what use is a genius to a big company if the genius never finishes a project but gets bored after a few weeks? University is a free place. Come and go as you pl…

It's a false assumption that not going to college means a person can't finish something. Fact is, MOST people don't go to college and many of them don't do it for financial or family reasons. College isn't like high school, it's not available to everyone for free. Many many smart people skip college and that's not going to change any time soon.

Of course I don't think that people who don't go to college can't finish something. I ABSOLUTELY would hire a person who did not go to college if he was qualified. But a person who drops out of college because he felt the classes where holding him back is for me a person who cannot complete stuff.

If he dropped out to execute something (like start a business), then it is a major plus point. If he dropped out to go work in a dead end job, or to become an 'artist' then this is a sign of a person who cannot complete projects.

I mean, why would you drop out of college to go earn $3000 a month when you could just finish college and earn more than that?

I would NEVER discriminate against a person because financially they had trouble going to college. But I would see it as very negative if a person complained about college not being the right thing for them. Learning is learning, there is no right or wrong way. Everyone does it his way.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#68

Post by maxklein »

sah wrote: post #54
maxklein wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstand me. I do not learn exactly enough to get things done. That would be impossible. If I am asked to program a web app in PHP, I would study PHP, Databases, Web server configurations, and have enough knowledge to develop a web app. I would not start by studying design patterns, software modelling techniques and abstract functional programming. That's the difference between self learning and stru…

As a self-taught hacker, this just isn't true of me. I'm constantly reading about things that I have no immediate use for. In fact, one of the reasons I dropped out of my CS undergrad program was that I felt like its focus was too narrow.

So what stopped you from absorbing all of the narrow focus and then discovering more by reading on the side?

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#69

Post by matthewking »

maxklein wrote: post #63
LPTS wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to college and was a semester away from graduating. Here is my education history. I studied music and philosophy not computers. Anyway I was self taught enough that in my senior year contemporary philosophy of mind class (which I studied independently because it was my interest before the class was offered), the professor asked me to proofread and critique the final rather then take it. I never took notes but…

I believe in people who execute. The tasks you have to do in a standard job are for the most part VERY similar to those in school. Little creativity is required, just follow the rules and deliver. People who cannot finish a college degree may be geniuses, but what use is a genius to a big company if the genius never finishes a project but gets bored after a few weeks? University is a free place. Come and go as you pl…

Not going to university was an option, I made a decision, got on with it, and I haven't lost anything in the pace of my career as a result. If anything its instilled an attitude that has well prepared me for running my own company, in the ability to think different and break the rules.

Therefore I don't see it that I failed to complete a project, or have a lacking ability to execute. Not going the normal path, where you're not guided through, the route isn't clear, you have to make decisions, and take actions on your own accord.

Does that not demonstrate an ability to execute?

I have always encountered jobs on the standard job market that require degrees, and I just thought that was how it was. I found other jobs, and made my way despite that.

The reason for starting this thread was because I thought people starting their own companies, especially many of them being from a technical background themselves, would have a different line of thinking..

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