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Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

arstechnica.com

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Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#61

Post by detaro »

yeahitslikethat wrote: post #59
tptacek wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just ban all of Boeing's planes from flying? That would teach Boeing an even greater lesson.

Do that until all the 737max's are fixed and I bet they are fixed in a hurry. But I'm sure your sarcasm means you think the economic impact will be worse than the lives lost in the pursuit of financial preservation. Money is worth more than lives right?

> Do that until all the 737max's are fixed and I bet they are fixed in a hurry.

Because fixed in a hurry is what you want in that situation?

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#62

Post by yeahitslikethat »

chki wrote: post #32
laythea wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the money is a fiat system, without the backing of actual gold, this money effectively goes back into "the ether".

I don't think that's true. The money is not destroyed, it is instead transferred to the government and can be used for various purposes. Of course you could argue that the government could theoretically decide to arbitraly print money so any money that goes to the government is actually not worth anything but since the fed operates independently this is just not true.

The US treasury loans the cash at zero interest to the Fed (which is actually a coalition of corporate banks, not a federal government entity).

The Fed then loans that money out with interest and backed by the good faith in the us government.

This means the banks which as major holders of stock in Facebook, most of whom want Zuckerberg out as ceo, are also incentivized to pursue a bigger fine.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#63

Post by stevenjohns »

adventured wrote: post #53
Avshalom wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean first fines pretty much have to scale with total revenue to deter behavior second 5 billion won't even lead to an unprofitable quarter at 2018's numbers so there's a loooot of room between 5B and an existential fine, we aren't any where near the slippery part of the slope.

> I mean first fines pretty much have to scale with total revenue to deter behavior That's only an effective approach if your goal is to cripple many of the companies that you fine. Almost no large companies on the planet have the extreme profit margins of Facebook. Alternatively to avoid that kind of damage you have to adjust the percentage scale to each individual company's profit margins (25% revenue fine for Face…

> That's only an effective approach if your goal is to cripple many of the companies that you fine

Yes, some companies should be crippled. With criminal sentencing, the first goal is to isolate that person from society as a punishment with reform being a second consideration. With criminals, judges or magistrates would level higher-end sentences as an example and you won't hear many people arguing against a criminal's 15 year sentence by saying it would cripple their economic output.

Society owes nothing to corporations and this "too big to fail" mentality creates a system where corporations are above ethics.

Seeing Facebook fined into to a point where they are seriously crippled as a company will make a lot of other companies change their tune, internationally, for the better.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#64

Post by Avshalom »

commandlinefan wrote: post #39
Implicated wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and have in many cases admitted to adjusting their platforms to shift public sentiment in favor of liberal politicians and liberal political causes. Can you cite some sources on this? I'm curious as to how these admissions came about.

Well, I'm referring to the Facebook/Twitter/YouTube conservative purge - they're pretty open about it.

If they're doing it they aren't 'open' about it unless you think there's no difference whatever Alex Jones or Richard Spencer are and conservatives.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#65

Post by deckar01 »

salimmadjd wrote: post #26

my cynical side says there is more to this. I think FB is a major threat to the distribution of news that is mostly owned and controlled by the mainstream media owners. I think this is all part of forcing FB to come to the negotiation table, and negotiate banning more independent information sources to make these fines go away.

I would leave the thinking to journalists who dedicate their careers to uncovering the truth. Stating you believe in a conspiracy without having any evidence undermines your entire point.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#66

Post by FridgeSeal »

adventured wrote: post #53
Avshalom wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean first fines pretty much have to scale with total revenue to deter behavior second 5 billion won't even lead to an unprofitable quarter at 2018's numbers so there's a loooot of room between 5B and an existential fine, we aren't any where near the slippery part of the slope.

> I mean first fines pretty much have to scale with total revenue to deter behavior That's only an effective approach if your goal is to cripple many of the companies that you fine. Almost no large companies on the planet have the extreme profit margins of Facebook. Alternatively to avoid that kind of damage you have to adjust the percentage scale to each individual company's profit margins (25% revenue fine for Face…

> That's only an effective approach if your goal is to cripple many of the companies that you fine.

Don’t screw up egregiously and repeatedly and you won’t get burnt. ¯\_(ツ)\_/¯

Taking the gently-gently approach with fining companies has totally failed: they simply incorporate the cost into their margins and continue on like nothing actually happened; so yes, it is time to start burning companies that don’t do the right thing.

Maybe some will fail as a result, that’s ok: simply existing is not carte balnche permission to continue existing. At least the new gap in the market will probably make room for a new company that will play by the rules.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#67

Post by thwythwy »

tptacek wrote: post #37

This is kind of alarming to me. A fine should scale with the the greater of the harm done and the amount needed to deter the behavior. But that's not what's happening here; instead, people are proposing that the fine scale with Facebook's total revenue. Even Facebook's most ardent critics probably don't believe they derive a majority (or really even a significant amount) of revenue from the lax API controls companies…

You want proof that something is insufficient? Proving a negative. Alright lobbyist.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#68

Post by [deleted] »

tptacek wrote: post #37

This is kind of alarming to me. A fine should scale with the the greater of the harm done and the amount needed to deter the behavior. But that's not what's happening here; instead, people are proposing that the fine scale with Facebook's total revenue. Even Facebook's most ardent critics probably don't believe they derive a majority (or really even a significant amount) of revenue from the lax API controls companies…

[deleted]

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#69

Post by jachee »

tptacek wrote: post #57
burtonator wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another key point. It should not just deter Facebook but OTHER companies considering the same action.

Sure! Facebook makes more money managing private information than virtually any other company. What's the larger company they'd need to deter?

Every single company that collects, stores and uses any personally identifiable information should be deterred from abusing their privilege of doing so.

Re: Two senators say a $5B fine isn’t enough to punish Facebook

#70

Post by tptacek »

Avshalom wrote: post #49
tptacek wrote: post #37

This is kind of alarming to me. A fine should scale with the the greater of the harm done and the amount needed to deter the behavior. But that's not what's happening here; instead, people are proposing that the fine scale with Facebook's total revenue. Even Facebook's most ardent critics probably don't believe they derive a majority (or really even a significant amount) of revenue from the lax API controls companies…

I mean first fines pretty much have to scale with total revenue to deter behavior second 5 billion won't even lead to an unprofitable quarter at 2018's numbers so there's a loooot of room between 5B and an existential fine, we aren't any where near the slippery part of the slope.

No, fines don't have to scale with total revenue. If most of Facebook's revenue has nothing to do with the incident the FTC is fining it for, all the fine needs to do is make that specific business activity irrationally risky to do in the future.
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