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A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

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Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#61

Post by tzs »

MangezBien wrote: post #9
seibelj wrote: post #5

Doctors protect life, and lawyers keep you out of jail. I guess software engineers can take an oath not to kill people or put people in jail, but after that it's your morals vs. mine, no? And if I work for the Department of Defense making missile guidance software, then it's OK to kill people, I suppose...

Making missile guidance software is wholly unethical and is what we should be striving to prevent engineers from working on.

I bet the civilians who do not become collateral damage because the missile that was supposed to hit a military base did so due to good guidance software instead of missing and hitting their town would disagree.

When a situation has escalated to the point that someone is launching missiles, it has usually reached the point where destroying the target is more important to them then the risk of collateral damage. If the guidance software is not good enough to give a small margin of error, they will launch several missiles to ensure that one is likely to hit the target, which pretty much guarantees a lot of damage throughout the margin of error of the guidance software.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#62

Post by analognoise »

maxxxxx wrote: post #52
analognoise wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's unethical is to have your countrymen in a fight with substandard equipment that you could have helped them improve. War is an ever-present possibility - do you want your neighbor's kids (or yours, if they join the service) dying or being maimed because you didn't help with what you know? 1000 years ago, if you were a blacksmith and the Vikings were coming, would you make swords or ornamental railings? People w…

“think the limp-wristed 'ethical' stance on defense is really just virtue-signalling for other limp-wristed selfish people.” You are making some good points and you are damaging them with your last paragraph.

Removed last paragraph, thanks for the feedback.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#63

Post by shawnz »

mieseratte wrote: post #58
shawnz wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent never said that there are no white people who face socioeconomic challenges. But whiteness itself does not create any socioeconomic disadvantage.

Here is what the parent wrote: > and socioeconomic forces means that black people face systemic barriers to getting access to that education (versus whites, indians, asians, etc.) My contention is that the exact same socioeconomic forces exist across racial lines. There may be historical factors that vary by racial group, or sub-groups therein, but the problems are universal.

If I claim apples are red, that doesn't imply that apples are the only thing that is red. It's just a good example of a red thing.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#64

Post by JoelMcCracken »

Apreche wrote: post #57
tonetheman wrote: post #2

Programmers/technologist often work for those who only work money... ethics generally do not work in such places...

Exactly this. If we create hardware and software ethically, that product will not make enough money. Capitalism is almost entirely add odds with ethical engineering practices. Think about it. Imagine Facebook not doing anything evil. Never selling your data without your permission. Never spying on you. Putting lots of restrictions on advertisements to make sure they are all ok. Banning all the bad users. Reporting an…

You say it as if these companies shutting down would be a bad thing. These products exploit their users in ways the users and society at large does not yet understand.

If a product cant be profitable without abusing its power, it shouldn't exist.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#65

Post by mieseratte »

shawnz wrote: post #63
mieseratte wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is what the parent wrote: > and socioeconomic forces means that black people face systemic barriers to getting access to that education (versus whites, indians, asians, etc.) My contention is that the exact same socioeconomic forces exist across racial lines. There may be historical factors that vary by racial group, or sub-groups therein, but the problems are universal.

If I claim apples are red, that doesn't imply that apples are the only thing that is red. It's just a good example of a red thing.

The parent quite literally wrote

> (versus whites, indians, asians, etc.)

This is saying those problems don't exist for another group. You are either poorly trolling or unable to read.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#66

Post by detaro »

analognoise wrote: post #45
maxxxxx wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people will think creating weapons for defense is an ethical thing to do. I prefer not to do that but I think the point is valid and there is no clear way to determine what’s ethical and what isn't.

What's unethical is to have your countrymen in a fight with substandard equipment that you could have helped them improve. War is an ever-present possibility - do you want your neighbor's kids (or yours, if they join the service) dying or being maimed because you didn't help with what you know? 1000 years ago, if you were a blacksmith and the Vikings were coming, would you make swords or ornamental railings? People w…

I suspect that if people could rely on that the weapons they make are used defensively, many more would be willing to make weapons. In many countries, you can't rely on that, and making tools that reduce risk increase the leaderships willingness to use force more offensively.

And of course there's a large unclear area where one persons long-term defensive measure is another persons justified intervention, and another persons war of aggression.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#67

Post by vorpalhex »

7402 wrote: post #29

See ACM (Association for Computing Machinery) Code of Ethics and Professional Conduct at https://ethics.acm.org/code-of-ethics/ Here are the main points: 1. GENERAL MORAL IMPERATIVES. As an ACM member I will 1.1 Contribute to society and human well-being. 1.2 Avoid harm to others. 1.3 Be honest and trustworthy. 1.4 Be fair and take action not to discriminate. 1.5 Honor property rights including copyrights and patent.…

This is kind of grossly simplified though, isn't it?

> 1.2 Avoid harm to others

So no smart weapons which minimize collateral damage?

> 1.5 Honor property rights including copyrights and patent.

So no Sci-Hub? What about bad copyrights?

> 1.8 Honor confidentiality.

What about whistleblowing?

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#68

Post by shawnz »

mieseratte wrote: post #65
shawnz wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I claim apples are red, that doesn't imply that apples are the only thing that is red. It's just a good example of a red thing.

The parent quite literally wrote > (versus whites, indians, asians, etc.) This is saying those problems don't exist for another group. You are either poorly trolling or unable to read.

No, what they are saying is that those groups don't face inherent socioeconomic challenges simply due to being a part of that group, in the same way that for example black and Hispanic people do. That doesn't mean nobody else can face socioeconomic challenges.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#69

Post by tzs »

mieseratte wrote: post #58
shawnz wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent never said that there are no white people who face socioeconomic challenges. But whiteness itself does not create any socioeconomic disadvantage.

Here is what the parent wrote: > and socioeconomic forces means that black people face systemic barriers to getting access to that education (versus whites, indians, asians, etc.) My contention is that the exact same socioeconomic forces exist across racial lines. There may be historical factors that vary by racial group, or sub-groups therein, but the problems are universal.

I can tell at a glance if you are black. I cannot tell at a glance if you are rural white.

This is significant because white is the majority. It means that if I, as a member of the majority, wish to discriminate against those outside of the majority [1], it is easy for blacks. I can just avoid all of them.

For whites who aren't the "right" kind of white, I can't just use a simple rule. I actually have to look into the background. Furthermore, you can try to hide that background from me, hoping I mistake you for the "right" kind of white. Maybe I'll eventually find out you aren't, but if you have proven yourself useful to me in the mean time maybe I'll overlook that.

The black guy? He can't hide that from me, so he doesn't even get the chance to prove himself.

[1] I don't, but the writing is more natural from the point of view of one who does, so I shall role play a bigot in this comment.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#70

Post by maxxxxx »

detaro wrote: post #66
analognoise wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's unethical is to have your countrymen in a fight with substandard equipment that you could have helped them improve. War is an ever-present possibility - do you want your neighbor's kids (or yours, if they join the service) dying or being maimed because you didn't help with what you know? 1000 years ago, if you were a blacksmith and the Vikings were coming, would you make swords or ornamental railings? People w…

I suspect that if people could rely on that the weapons they make are used defensively, many more would be willing to make weapons. In many countries, you can't rely on that, and making tools that reduce risk increase the leaderships willingness to use force more offensively. And of course there's a large unclear area where one persons long-term defensive measure is another persons justified intervention, and another…

Personal I think a country needs to produce defense weapons but I would draw a line at selling to unstable countries for profit. Defense should not be a profit center
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