Is everything an MLM • Hacker News Board

Re: Is everything an MLM

#61

Post by UnpossibleJim » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 2:28 PM UTC

hopler wrote: post #36

AznHisoka wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1 thing I never understood is this obsession towards jobs growth. Every month, when this number is released, everyone wants this number to be better than the last month. Yet if everyone who wants a job eventually gets one, this number will eventually go to zero. And if it goes to zero, that would be a good thing. Yet everyone panics if the number of jobs created that month goes down. People are freaking crazy.

Jobs are a proxy for both productivity and for citizens' share of value. Productivity without jobs is inequality, in a capitalist economy. If we had a socialist economy with a citizens dividend, we'd care more about productivity than jobs. Even so, a human is untapped potential, and jobs tap that potential.

The problem comes in that these systems of government only ever work on paper. People lay out Communism, socialism and capitalism as though they're these absolutes and forget that they have to exist in the real world run by real people, warts and all. People will find cracks in the system, exploit them and widen them to make them better for their particular group. Whatever "ism" you conjure is no panacea for whatever ails you. The grass is always greener on the other side, is all.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#62

Post by rleigh » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 2:28 PM UTC

johnisgood wrote: post #51

soVeryTired wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess any sort of significant power imbalance. Does your team generate good revenue for the company but you still get paid peanuts? Does your work ask for overtime but fail to allow you to take time off when you need it? Do they ask for commitment to the job, while being prepared to terminate you at a moment's notice when time gets tough?

Yeah, but you get into that contract voluntarily , so you sort of know what you signed up for, and regardless, you have the option to quit. This is why I do not understand the complaints.

No, it's not entirely voluntary. It's a necessity to live. I might be able to pick and choose between several employers, but ultimately I'm going to have to choose one of them. There's a power imbalance between employee and employer, and that will translate into a negotiating disadvantage; the future employee is at a disadvantage here.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#63

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 2:33 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #47

AznHisoka wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm is this growth in population predominantly in the working age group? If more babies are being born, then they cant exactly work yet. Furthermore, what about people retiring?

Yes. Most of the growth is immigration. People don't immigrate to retire. They immigrate to work.

[deleted]

Re: Is everything an MLM

#64

Post by DataWorker » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 2:37 PM UTC

jopsen wrote: post #57

bluetomcat wrote: post #53

Most of the economy in the so called "developed countries" is nowadays a zero-sum game between winners and losers. Seen from a macro perspective, it resembles a multi-agent system where independent agents compete to provide inessential products and services in exchange for being able to afford basic necessities like housing, food and child care. The finite resource that such companies are fighting for is people's att…

> ...because market forces will mostly solve only small "consumer" problems and cannot reorganise our society in a more efficient way. Market forces have repeatedly reorganized our society from farms to factories and increasingly from factories to offices.. But we might need to tweak the incentives and refactor regulation.

Silliness. Why has the 40 hour week persisted? Market forces. Climate change? Market forces. The persistence of the slave trade? Market forces. Prostitution and human trafficking, opioids, disintegration of the family, Facebook; all your good friend “market forces”.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#65

Post by rossenberg79 » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 2:38 PM UTC

soVeryTired wrote: post #48

johnisgood wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does exploitation mean exactly in this context? What does it mean to be exploited by an employer?

I guess any sort of significant power imbalance. Does your team generate good revenue for the company but you still get paid peanuts? Does your work ask for overtime but fail to allow you to take time off when you need it? Do they ask for commitment to the job, while being prepared to terminate you at a moment's notice when time gets tough?

There is no power imbalance except for the ones you create for yourself. A company doesn’t have much power over an employee willing to walk away for some other job.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#66

Post by petra » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 2:47 PM UTC

bluetomcat wrote: post #53

Most of the economy in the so called "developed countries" is nowadays a zero-sum game between winners and losers. Seen from a macro perspective, it resembles a multi-agent system where independent agents compete to provide inessential products and services in exchange for being able to afford basic necessities like housing, food and child care. The finite resource that such companies are fighting for is people's att…

>> because market forces will mostly solve only small "consumer" problems and cannot reorganise our society in a more efficient way.

That's true.

But also, can most people really, truly, contribute to big, important problems in our society - in the context of globalization and automation ?

Re: Is everything an MLM

#67

Post by jhbadger » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 2:47 PM UTC

soniman wrote: post #19

Any decent grad department will give the grad students a tuition waiver and stipend so it's actually the opposite of a pyramid scheme. In a pyramid scheme, you pay to join the pyramid. In academia, the pyramid pays you. I spent two years in a grad department in Boston that paid me to hang out and read books and occasionally grade papers. It probably wasn't the best life decision but there wasn't any exploitation.

Yes, that's true. But what is pyramidish about grad school is the the idea that most doctoral students have going in that they are going to get a tenure track position at the end. That can't work because one professor may mentor dozens of grad students over time, and while universities may be growing, they aren't growing that fast. Of course being a professor isn't the only thing you can do with a doctorate, and lately schools are pointing out that you can go into industry or become a patent lawyer or whatever, but except in maybe CS or engineering, that isn't typically what people wanted to get a doctorate for.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#68

Post by seibelj » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 2:49 PM UTC

bluetomcat wrote: post #53

Most of the economy in the so called "developed countries" is nowadays a zero-sum game between winners and losers. Seen from a macro perspective, it resembles a multi-agent system where independent agents compete to provide inessential products and services in exchange for being able to afford basic necessities like housing, food and child care. The finite resource that such companies are fighting for is people's att…

I’m sorry that this is your world view, because it is deeply flawed and focusing on such cynicism leads to depression.

Most of HN lives in a tech bubble where everyone is focused on building semi-useless software like you describe. However the majority of society still does “normal” things like construction, manufacturing, sales, etc. and some sort of fundamental reorganizing of society on non-market principles doesn’t change that someone needs to maintain our physical infrastructure and keep the lights on.

The economy is not a zero-sum game. If I make more money there is not someone else losing. The more jobs there are, the more needs fulfilled, the more services provided the better it is for everyone as more money moves around.

It’s not on someone else to tell me what I should and should not want. If I desire it and a company provides it for a price, it doesn’t matter that the smart refrigerator is a waste in your vision. The market demands, and entrepreneurs provide.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#69

Post by javajosh » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

tomrod wrote: post #21

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #8

I think all of the above is very specific to higher-education in the US. I'm a PhD resarch student in a UK university and that's really not what I see from where I stand. And keep in mind that universities here too are for-pay and the tuition fees can be very high and the UK society has very much embraced free-market capitalism. And UK universities these days will take on just anyone for a PhD (see: me). But, really-…

In the US I saw engineering labs using PhDs from abroad as almost slave labor. A bit hyperbolic perhaps, but the students were not allowed to progress without the advisor's say so, and the advisors would not allow them to top-author papers they were basically sole contributing. On top of that, between their own work and lab work, they were expected to put in 60 to 80 hours a week. The point is, the power dynamics wer…

>advisors would not allow them to top-author papers they were basically sole contributing

As an aside, how is this possible, or legal? Can't a student (can't anyone) submit a paper to a journal on their own? IIRC Einstein was a free-agent when he submitted all those papers in 1905.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#70

Post by petra » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 3:02 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #68

bluetomcat wrote: post #53

Most of the economy in the so called "developed countries" is nowadays a zero-sum game between winners and losers. Seen from a macro perspective, it resembles a multi-agent system where independent agents compete to provide inessential products and services in exchange for being able to afford basic necessities like housing, food and child care. The finite resource that such companies are fighting for is people's att…

I’m sorry that this is your world view, because it is deeply flawed and focusing on such cynicism leads to depression. Most of HN lives in a tech bubble where everyone is focused on building semi-useless software like you describe. However the majority of society still does “normal” things like construction, manufacturing, sales, etc. and some sort of fundamental reorganizing of society on non-market principles doesn…

>> It’s not on someone else to tell me what I should and should not want.

That's true.

>> If I desire it and a company provides it for a price, it doesn’t matter that the smart refrigerator is a waste in your vision.

People are not good at knowing(or at least acting) on what will make them deeply happy, happier over the longer term, or even just happy. Psychological research tells us that.

Add to that the power of advertising, so yes, people do want many things of little value.