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Samurai Helmets

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Re: Samurai Helmets

#61

Post by benj111 »

krapp wrote: post #58
benj111 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been mulling the cause and effect mentioned in your comment. Poor quality steel -> heavy -> 2 handed. I don't ever recall seeing a 2 handed bronze sword, and if the steel is worse than bronze, why didn't they go back to that? Which kind of suggests that it isn't. I'm assuming low quality steel is overly soft rather than overly brittle. If it were overly soft wouldn't that favour shorter blades? You'd either get…

>I got the impression 2 handed swords/no shield was an honour thing, rather than a tactically advantageous thing, I'm in no way an expert on such things though. I am not an expert either but as I understand it, Samurai were nobles and fought on horseback with their primary weapons being spears and bows, and they considered swords a backup weapon.[0] The mythologizing of the Samurai, their honor-above-reason mentality…

"The mythologizing of the Samurai, their honor-above-reason mentality"

Agreed, I was focussing more on the not tactically advantageous, rather than ascribing an honour code per se.

It is generally a good idea to agree weapons beforehand, it helps keep the battlefield survivable. The 20th century wasn't known for it's 'honour' but WW2 combatants did refrain from using chemical weapons for example, and nukes were never used in the cold war and it's proxy battles. I'd label that as part of an honour code? I'm not making the case too forcefully though.

Re: Samurai Helmets

#62

Post by jbattle »

hangonhn wrote: post #52
guiomie wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting I always thought it was artistically derived from the german ww1-ww2 helmets.

The Stormtroopers are based on WWII German army uniforms and equipment, even down to the gas mask cylinder that German soldiers carried behind them. Even the name Stormtroopers comes from German WWII unit type name.

sturmtruppen were 'invented' in WW1 to capture trenches, though yeah the term lived on to the next WW

Re: Samurai Helmets

#63

Post by golemiprague »

Spearchucker wrote: post #39
sorokod wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a lot of respect for martial arts disciplines that put martial arts first and keep spiritual aspects of the practice ( if they have one ) off the marketing material.

This is interesting. I've been doing Krav Maga for some time and a few years ago did a week of it in Isreal, sampling all its aspects and applications - military, close protection, civilian, police /crowd control and... it's spiritual side. For a martial art so young I was surprised it even has a spiritual side. It's also become the aspect I find most fascinating. And yet the instructors accompanying us seemed embarr…

Krav maga is a fighting system derived from east european street fighting "wisdom", it is not a martial art per se and got no spiritual side.

I know some people who studied it from the guy who invented krav maga, Imi Lichtenfeld. The thing is, because most of them are into martial arts they usually studied also other martial arts and sometimes incorporate it into their brand of krav maga. But it is mostly lessons from boxing and jiu juitsu, simple mma stuff rather than some spiritual stuff.

The whole idea of krav maga is to distill whatever is effective and practical in real street situation for people who need to learn it in a relatively short time. Therefore it is based on simple and intuitive techniques with no spiritual side and no regard for any rules which still exist even in mma. If you find any spiritual side in this it would be a very perverted one.

Re: Samurai Helmets

#65

Post by chrisseaton »

hangonhn wrote: post #52
guiomie wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting I always thought it was artistically derived from the german ww1-ww2 helmets.

The Stormtroopers are based on WWII German army uniforms and equipment, even down to the gas mask cylinder that German soldiers carried behind them. Even the name Stormtroopers comes from German WWII unit type name.

> Even the name Stormtroopers comes from German WWII unit type name.

Stormtroopers were from the First World War.

> Stormtroopers were specialist soldiers of the German Army in World War I.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormtrooper

Re: Samurai Helmets

#66

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

benj111 wrote: post #56
DavidAdams wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also why the Jedi (at least in the earlier films) use two hands to hold their lightsabers. It's the Japanese style. Of course, Samurai swords were two-handed because they were heavy, due to the poor quality of steel available. A light saber "blade" would presumably weigh nothing, so it would make more sense to hold it one handed like a, well, saber. A master of the more technologically advanced European saber…

I've been mulling the cause and effect mentioned in your comment. Poor quality steel -> heavy -> 2 handed. I don't ever recall seeing a 2 handed bronze sword, and if the steel is worse than bronze, why didn't they go back to that? Which kind of suggests that it isn't. I'm assuming low quality steel is overly soft rather than overly brittle. If it were overly soft wouldn't that favour shorter blades? You'd either get…

I'm not so sure about that either. Katanas used to be much longer if you go back several hundred years before the Edo period. I believe that the 2-handed method has more to do with providing greater power and control than the weight of the sword (one hand guiding, the other providing force). Also, there was a fair amount of schooling in drawing the sword and cutting your opponent in a single motion, which of course, is only practical with one hand.

Samurai also carried the smaller wakizashi which was used in one hand. Further, some of the lesser known swordsmen used a two-sword technique, holding a katana in either hand.

But my memory may be fuzzy; it's been a good 15+ years since I was really into all this stuff :-)

Re: Samurai Helmets

#67

Post by ender7 »

While beautiful, most of these pieces are primarily ceremonial or intended for generals who would rarely involve themselves on the battlefield†.

Almost all of these pieces date from after the unification of Japan under the Tokugawa shogunate (c. 1600). From 1600 to 1850 Japan experienced a stable period marked by very little real armed conflict. During this time, the samurai transitioned from soldiers to what were effectively mid-level bureaucrats. However, unlike most bureaucrats, they managed to retain all of the trappings of a martial lifestyle, including ornate armor, beautiful swords, and the occasional mortal duel. It was during this time of relative peace that these (sometimes ridiculous) fashion pieces developed, somewhat complicated by the tradition of incorporating pieces of much, much older helmets into the "core" of the helmets (one of the helmets in the OP has a core dating from the 14th century, but was significantly embellished later on).

†This is generally true of what arms and armor have survived from around the world. The stuff that was actually used rusted away long ago; the highest chance for survival was to have been so valuable that no one dared to actually take it onto a battlefield.

Re: Samurai Helmets

#68

Post by User23 »

krapp wrote: post #58
benj111 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been mulling the cause and effect mentioned in your comment. Poor quality steel -> heavy -> 2 handed. I don't ever recall seeing a 2 handed bronze sword, and if the steel is worse than bronze, why didn't they go back to that? Which kind of suggests that it isn't. I'm assuming low quality steel is overly soft rather than overly brittle. If it were overly soft wouldn't that favour shorter blades? You'd either get…

>I got the impression 2 handed swords/no shield was an honour thing, rather than a tactically advantageous thing, I'm in no way an expert on such things though. I am not an expert either but as I understand it, Samurai were nobles and fought on horseback with their primary weapons being spears and bows, and they considered swords a backup weapon.[0] The mythologizing of the Samurai, their honor-above-reason mentality…

You're correct. Swords are almost always a sidearm and not a primary weapon. A notable exception is the sword and shield; for example the Roman legionary's gladius and scutum (and even then the pilum was thrown first). On the battlefield the samurai would use a bow or yari before his sword.

Primary weapons were generally either bows or some kind of long stick with something sharp on the end. Primary weapons and shields are both inconvenient and tacky to carry when not expecting battle, so the sidearm becomes the badge of office or nobility for the warrior class.

Re: Samurai Helmets

#69

Post by zipwitch »

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #66
benj111 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been mulling the cause and effect mentioned in your comment. Poor quality steel -> heavy -> 2 handed. I don't ever recall seeing a 2 handed bronze sword, and if the steel is worse than bronze, why didn't they go back to that? Which kind of suggests that it isn't. I'm assuming low quality steel is overly soft rather than overly brittle. If it were overly soft wouldn't that favour shorter blades? You'd either get…

I'm not so sure about that either. Katanas used to be much longer if you go back several hundred years before the Edo period. I believe that the 2-handed method has more to do with providing greater power and control than the weight of the sword (one hand guiding, the other providing force). Also, there was a fair amount of schooling in drawing the sword and cutting your opponent in a single motion, which of course,…

Your memory must be fuzzy. You just referred to Miyamoto Musashi as "lesser known" :-)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi

"Musashi, as he was often simply known, became renowned through stories of his unique double-bladed swordsmanship and undefeated record in his 61 duels (next is 33 by Itō Ittōsai)."

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