PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account • Hacker News Board

Re: PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

#61

Post by billmcneale » Sat, Dec 04, 2010, 6:45 PM UTC

ra wrote: post #20

cubicle67 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, what's the story with that? Shouldn't the money either be given to Wikileaks (unlikely) or returned the the donor? In what sort of world can the middle man cut one side of a deal out, and keep the money?

Exactly. Who's the criminal in this picture?

WikiLeaks. They stole documents and they are publishing them without the consent of the owners. The fact that this owner is the government is irrelevant.

How would you feel if it were your personal emails that were published on a public web site like this?

Re: PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

#62

Post by sgrove » Sat, Dec 04, 2010, 6:50 PM UTC

Roritharr wrote: post #13

I just closed my PayPal account because of this. Here is a direct Link if you want to do it yourself. https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_close-account

I just closed my account, sent them and email, and retweeted the link. Thanks for putting it there?

Re: PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

#63

Post by Vivtek » Sat, Dec 04, 2010, 6:55 PM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #51

gbrindisi wrote: post #26

I am reading a lot of boycott statement against Paypal in the comments – and I fully understand – but guys... where have you been when Amazon refused to host Wikileaks? And what about EasyDNS? Paypal is a company doing business and I dislike them as much as you do but please don't forget that Government >> Company. Always.

Amazon is much harder for me to move away from than PayPal. with PayPal, I just transfer my money out and click the cancel button. With Amazon, I have to re-do my entire deployment setup, since Heroku has made it so freaking easy. Not to mention migrate all of my addon accounts too... significantly more complicated. I'll still do it, it just won't happen today.

I have the same problem with PayPal. 70% of my income comes from Europe through PayPal. I'm seriously considering moving to Moneybookers, though, for my European customers. This really stinks.

Re: PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

#64

Post by Vivtek » Sat, Dec 04, 2010, 6:59 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #53

haploid wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a serious post? The government can exact capricious petty revenge on your business, so it's not the business's fault for exercising cowardice? It would be unbelievably easy to rightfully Godwin your perspective on this issue, but I won't do it. The United States is a nation predicated on a set of inviolate rights that are supposedly protected by the charter document of the nation itself. Among these rights ar…

>PayPal, Amazon, et. al. Have not broken the law by providing services to Wikileaks I would be surprised if it's not illegal to aid in the dissemination of classified material. Nevertheless, its certainly illegal to aid an abet terrorists. Seeing as the government owns the monopoly on defining who is a terrorist, it's not a stretch at all to see there might be actual legal consequences down the road for these compani…

Nope. While they may have a case against the original leaker, once it's out, classified information is out in the United States (not so in the UK, with the Official Secrets Act) and further disclosure is at least nominally protected by the Constitution.

Re: PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

#65

Post by Vivtek » Sat, Dec 04, 2010, 7:00 PM UTC

derefr wrote: post #42

sliverstorm wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a problem that a company has to obey the laws of the country it resides in?

It's a problem that the laws are such that obeying them or being considered ethical by one's customers is a double-bind.

It's even more a problem that the law isn't even on the government's side here...

Re: PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

#66

Post by rue » Sat, Dec 04, 2010, 7:02 PM UTC

billmcneale wrote: post #61

ra wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Who's the criminal in this picture?

WikiLeaks. They stole documents and they are publishing them without the consent of the owners. The fact that this owner is the government is irrelevant. How would you feel if it were your personal emails that were published on a public web site like this?

Just on the off-chance that you are serious: it is of the utmost importance that the owner is a government, not a private person. The argument is that the government is keeping secrets from its people without the people being able to change that by normal means.

You are also incorrect about Wikileaks stealing any documents. They are only publishing.

Re: PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

#67

Post by Vivtek » Sat, Dec 04, 2010, 7:06 PM UTC

Roritharr wrote: post #13

I just closed my PayPal account because of this. Here is a direct Link if you want to do it yourself. https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_close-account

I can't close my PayPal account yet (although I will be encouraging my European customers to move to Moneybookers), but ... there's no way to email them about their own corporate actions. Does anybody know of an email address that I can just address with a complaint? Although a paper letter with a real stamp may get their attention more effectively...

Re: PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

#68

Post by Vivtek » Sat, Dec 04, 2010, 7:07 PM UTC

SwellJoe wrote: post #52

sliverstorm wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a problem that a company has to obey the laws of the country it resides in?

What laws, in particular, did you have in mind? Wikileaks has not, to the best of my knowledge, been charged with any violation of law in the United States (or anywhere else, for that matter).

Much less did Amazon or PayPal violate any law.

Re: PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

#69

Post by SwellJoe » Sat, Dec 04, 2010, 7:12 PM UTC

Vivtek wrote: post #68

SwellJoe wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What laws, in particular, did you have in mind? Wikileaks has not, to the best of my knowledge, been charged with any violation of law in the United States (or anywhere else, for that matter).

Much less did Amazon or PayPal violate any law.

I don't see anyone suggesting Amazon or PayPal violated any laws in this discussion, but maybe I missed it. I certainly haven't made such a suggestion.

Re: PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

#70

Post by Vivtek » Sat, Dec 04, 2010, 7:27 PM UTC

SwellJoe wrote: post #69

Vivtek wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much less did Amazon or PayPal violate any law.

I don't see anyone suggesting Amazon or PayPal violated any laws in this discussion, but maybe I missed it. I certainly haven't made such a suggestion.

That was my impression of silverstorm's comment - that PayPal has to comply with US law and thus shouldn't be denigrated for this decision. Not even Wikileaks has been shown to have violated US law, but my point was that Yahoo and PayPal can't even rely on the fact that they have to comply with US law, because they haven't violated it at all.

Well. They may have now - PayPal in particular could be accused of fraud for freezing an account unless they release the funds relatively quickly. This might even have the kind of visibility that would result in that kind of good outcome.

Wikileaks really is shining light on a lot of roaches this week...