Live data from Hacker News

Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

medscape.com

61–70 of 93 posts

Re: Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only a political thing in the minds of the politically-inclined. Since when was autism a cornerstone in anybody's ideology? I think the only reason this is riling people up is that it involves gender in the title.

"Men have different distribution of extremes, more dumbasses but also more brilliance, eg. autistic savants, which explains more CEOs and Nobel Prize winners, and therefore systemic sexism is a myth to deny biologically determined outcomes." it's a very important shibboleth for modern sexists

Meaning what?

Re: Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only a political thing in the minds of the politically-inclined. Since when was autism a cornerstone in anybody's ideology? I think the only reason this is riling people up is that it involves gender in the title.

"Men have different distribution of extremes, more dumbasses but also more brilliance, eg. autistic savants, which explains more CEOs and Nobel Prize winners, and therefore systemic sexism is a myth to deny biologically determined outcomes." it's a very important shibboleth for modern sexists

Why would it be important to a sexist? There's nothing about the hypothesis that lends itself to predicting the performance of any individual on the basis of sex. Indeed, it explicitly predicts equality on average. It only threatens the sexist position and supports the egalitarian position (it seems likely that people who are threatened by this hypothesis are actually sexists masquerading as egalitarians).

Re: Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

#63
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Men have different distribution of extremes, more dumbasses but also more brilliance, eg. autistic savants, which explains more CEOs and Nobel Prize winners, and therefore systemic sexism is a myth to deny biologically determined outcomes." it's a very important shibboleth for modern sexists

Meaning what?

It would mean that it's unlikely that differences at the top (and bottom, but we mustn't talk about those) are attributable to discrimination.

Re: Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

#64
post #47
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Managing anxiety in ASD is different to neurotypical people, for example. Speaking as somebody too 'high functioning' for a diagnosis... please elaborate edit: the responses to this feel weird, does anybody have resources for ASD folks experiencing anxiety?

Some autistic people experience high levels of anxiety in social situations. If they're diagnosed as autistic they get suitable help. If they're not diagnosed as autistic they get treatment for Social Anxiety or Social Anxiety Disorder, and that treatment doesn't work because they don't have SA or SAD.

To expand on this further, anxiety itself isn't a bad thing, as long as it has a good reason and is in a reasonable amount. People with an anxiety disorder feel far too much anxiety to the point is harms them. An autistic person who experiences anxiety about a social situation isn't experiencing extra anxiety because they experience too much anxiety compared to the average person, but because their relationship with social situations, due to their autism, has given them valid reasons for having more anxiety than the average person. Their anxiety is valid, thus fixing it by trying to treat it as stemming from a source giving them too much anxiety is fixing the symptom instead of the problem.

It's the difference between someone with arachnophobia fearing a toy spider like it was a real danger and someone who is susceptible to black widow poisoning fearing a black widow because it is a greater danger to them.

Re: Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

#66
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "too much overlap to draw a distinction" idea seems silly. The border between orange and yellow has overlap and can not be precisely defined, and yet we still can recognize the difference between orange and yellow. Many statistical techniques have been invented to prevent outliers from biasing correlations.

It’s uncontroversial to say that on average, men are taller than women. But other characteristics such as nutrition and genetics matter more: the average German woman (5’5”) is significantly taller than the average Peruvian man (5’1”). My point here is that the difference between men and women on most metrics tends to be more heavily influenced by other external factors.

> the difference between men and women on most metrics

I think that's the problem part of your argument. There's no qualification of what "most metrics" includes, much less whether that holds true for must neurological effects (which is more to the point), and that's before we even get around to discussing the fact that I'm sure there's a bunch of metrics we don't even know about.

Your statement might be entirely true. Unfortunately I don't know enough to judge the claims in it, I don't even know if we're at a level where we can judge the claims, and regardless you didn't provide any evidence to support it or help with that in any way. I'm not sure how it brings us any closer to an understanding of the issue.

Edit: rationale on down votes would be appreciated...

Re: Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

#67

I personally know the author of this paper who conducted these analyses. He is my office mate. He discovered his own error that then led to this retraction. The error involved under-documented statistical code which expected the coding of male and female (0,1) to be reversed when training a classifier on each group, is my understanding. He kept the coding of sex the same across both training regimes. This created err…

Thank you for sharing that interesting insight.

Re: Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

#68
post #41
post #2

A quick look at Simon Baron Cohen's tweet[1] (linked from the article) shows that this topic seems extremely divisive and inflammatory to people. Is this retraction and resulting modified study seen as an important victory for people promoting that there are no differences between the "male" and "female" brains? [1] https://twitter.com/sbaroncohen/status/832490232721371136

I wouldn’t say there are no differences between the “male” and “female” brain. I do know my brain wasn’t very happy on the hormones I was born producing — and there’s promising research about how gender identity actually has a basis in physical differences in brain structure [1] which are hypothesized to form based on exposure to various hormone levels during gestation (and which have already been shown to impact gen…

What is the difference between you and your brain?

Aren't 'your' thoughts thought by your brain

Re: Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

#69
post #16
post #2

A quick look at Simon Baron Cohen's tweet[1] (linked from the article) shows that this topic seems extremely divisive and inflammatory to people. Is this retraction and resulting modified study seen as an important victory for people promoting that there are no differences between the "male" and "female" brains? [1] https://twitter.com/sbaroncohen/status/832490232721371136

Yes. Not related to this specific study: > Meet the neuroscientist shattering the myth of the gendered brain > Are there any significant differences based on sex alone? The answer, she says, is no. To suggest otherwise is “neurofoolishness”. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/feb/24/meet-the-neu...

The studies underlying that article are really interesting, and it's frustrating to see science journalism butcher them so badly. (Everywhere, not just The Guardian; New Scientist did the same thing.) There's a lot of great work demonstrating the lack of a physical gender dichotomy, and I hate watching the 'AI winter' pattern where people dismiss that work because stories like this one use it for completely inapplicable claims.

Here's Rippon:

> "The idea of the male brain and the female brain suggests that each is a characteristically homogenous thing and that whoever has got a male brain, say, will have the same kind of aptitudes, preferences and personalities as everyone else with that ‘type’ of brain. We now know that is not the case."

That idea does have support, it's not a strawman. But it's the sort of idea you see from religious fundamentalists, not something any serious scientist has entertained in a very long time. People talking about prenatal testosterone, spatial reasoning fluidity, and gendered variance are not saying, even a little bit, that "everyone with a male brain will have the same aptitudes". The state of the art here is work like Joel on 'mosaic' brains, which looks at gender differences by brain region. It finds that there are many brain features gender-correlated physical differences, but these features have overlap between genders and the level of skew between different features is weakly correlated.

Here's Joel (https://www.pnas.org/content/112/50/15468):

> "Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain."

And a critic of Joel (https://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1968):

> "the authors convincingly establish that there is little evidence for this strict sexually dimorphic view of human brains, counter to the popular lay conception of a “male” and “female” brain[...]Critically, however, the conclusion that human brains cannot be categorized into two distinct classes depends largely on the level of analysis[...]In fact, an individual’s biological sex can be classified with extremely high accuracy by considering the brain mosaic as a whole."

While Rippon is jousting with the idea of strict dichotomy, researchers who reject sex differentiation concede that there are widespread statistical differences by sex. (Rippon vaguely acknowledges this too, "Of course there are sex differences", but it goes nowhere.) Other researchers are building models that can predict sex at >90% accuracy from brain-feature data. The Guardian writer implies that differences disappear after correcting for brain size, but the actual results say some significant features disappear. Even after regressing out head size, Chekroud's model retains 70% accuracy. (And of course, brain size has a strong sex correlation, so if you want to talk about real populations you wouldn't control for it.) Finally,

Finally, the story leaps to claiming adult differences are the result of socialization changing the brain. There's a lot going on here, none of it good. For one, it's the usual pop-science journalism format; the first half is study-driven, the second half applies that credibility to an unstudied claim. Do the mosaic differences exist with similar strength in early childhood? That could support or invalidate the entire narrative, and we simply don't know. For another, it makes the all-too-common mistake of conflating "not inborn" with "socialized", switching straight from physical brain structure to stereotypes without even mentioning intermediate factors like hormones. Finally, it heavily misrepresents existing research. Brain plasticity results in black cab drivers are repurposed to say that playing with Legos "very likely" produces lasting, observable brain differences. (But wait, how would gendered play be reflected in the brain? Didn't we just hear that adult men and women, despite all that socialization, don't have clearly observable brain differences? Well yes, it's not a very good article.)

Re: Study Linking Autism to 'Male Brain' Retracted, Replaced

#70
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does a diagnosis benefit someone with autism?

The same way a diagnosis benefits anyone who requires medical treatment.

This pretty much sums it up.

As always, just replace with "cancer" and see if you sound dismissive or callous. "How does being diagnosed help the cancer patient?"

Post reply on HN