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Fulcro Developers Guide: Single-page full-stack web applications in clj/cljs

book.fulcrologic.com

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Re: Fulcro Developers Guide: Single-page full-stack web applications in clj/cljs

#61

Post by didibus »

sansnomme wrote: post #40
chartpath wrote: post #28

Would anyone recommend Clojure if you run an engineering org and get to make decisions about languages? I've been running node shops for the last several years, and love Clojure since having hosted a couple meetups a while back. That and being most influenced by lispy/ai culture from SICP, CTM, PAIP, AIMA books. Node is getting tiresome due to not being able to trust the ecosystem quality (which takes away some of th…

The main issue with using Clojure is that you are expected to build everything out yourself. A lot of dependencies tend to stop being maintained after a while. Auth systems etc. are half-baked with 10 different implementations on GitHub. The newer shinier ones lack in features while the more featureful ones are from 3 years ago and have not seen a single update since. Now lisp people like to say "but...but.. backward…

Don't write a wrapper when using a Java lib. Just use it directly. Now the next person coming in just has to use it, no need to understand the wrapper and extend it. Interop is a first class feature specifically for that reason.

For the rest, I can only say that I don't understand the sentiment. It's true what you say about lots of Clojure libs, they were one off projects from someone and work has stopped on them. But I am able to move fast and ship with Clojure. For me, I can actually move faster with it. That's one of my main reasons for liking it so much.

There's a Java lib for everything complex. And there's a quality Clojure lib for everything common. I've never not found what I needed. And in general, I don't need as many things because the core libs are so full featured.

I'm not trying to deny your experience. It just makes me curious how my experience can be so different and almost opposite. That's why I've concluded that it's just not for everyone. It seems you are either a FPer or you aren't. And you are either a Lisper or you aren't. And with Clojure, you have to be both a Lisper and a FPer.

Re: Fulcro Developers Guide: Single-page full-stack web applications in clj/cljs

#62

Post by uxcolumbo »

aperiodic wrote: post #60
uxcolumbo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said 'was a professional Clojure developer'. Are you not doing Clojure development anymore? If so, why?

Yes. I was at Puppet (nee Puppet Labs) for four years, one of the larger Clojure shops to my knowledge (not that I've been keeping close tabs on who's picked it up recently). I switched jobs and language choice was not my #1 criterion. A very interesting opportunity that aligned well with my values (and paid better to boot), but was in a completely different tech stack (Python DS ecosystem, with some Scala). I love t…

Thanks for clarifying.

Do you have a blog or is there another way to contact you? I'm interested in what you wrote in your profile.

Re: Fulcro Developers Guide: Single-page full-stack web applications in clj/cljs

#63

Post by mark_l_watson »

marai2 wrote: post #38
mark_l_watson wrote: post #21

Really good work. I spent 15 minutes reading through this book over my first cup of coffee this morning. I stopped using Clojure about 5 years ago, after two long consulting jobs using Clojure. I decided Clojure was not a perfect fit for me (and, really, neither is Common Lisp, Racket, and Haskell - more favorite languages) but I am very happy to see the Clojure ecosystem still creating such great tools around the la…

Could you describe what the deficiencies or rough edges were with Clojure and Common Lisp in your experience with them?

I tend to do bottom up repl based development. For reasons that frankly I don’t remember, I compared the experience in Common Lisp to be better. And, I was always put off a little by the stack traces. I donated to Rich for the early development of Clojure, and it is a fine language and ecosystem, but it is just not a favorite language for me.

I gave Clojure another look more recently because of the bindings for the mxnet deep learning library, so I guess I didn’t completely drop it.

Re: Fulcro Developers Guide: Single-page full-stack web applications in clj/cljs

#64

Post by sansnomme »

didibus wrote: post #61
sansnomme wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main issue with using Clojure is that you are expected to build everything out yourself. A lot of dependencies tend to stop being maintained after a while. Auth systems etc. are half-baked with 10 different implementations on GitHub. The newer shinier ones lack in features while the more featureful ones are from 3 years ago and have not seen a single update since. Now lisp people like to say "but...but.. backward…

Don't write a wrapper when using a Java lib. Just use it directly. Now the next person coming in just has to use it, no need to understand the wrapper and extend it. Interop is a first class feature specifically for that reason. For the rest, I can only say that I don't understand the sentiment. It's true what you say about lots of Clojure libs, they were one off projects from someone and work has stopped on them. Bu…

It has less to do with FP or Lisp and more to do a lack of emphasis for rapid development and a significant impedance mismatch with the rest of the ecosystem. JVM interoperability works when the API is clean. It doesn't when obscure OOP features are used three layers deep and have to be mapped into Clojure which is more functional in nature.

Re: Fulcro Developers Guide: Single-page full-stack web applications in clj/cljs

#65

Post by pjmlp »

manishsharan wrote: post #25

Should I be using a Modern do-it-all frameworks for Clojure and Clojurescript? My opinion is of course colored by my years spent in JAVA/J2EE's world of web frameworks ( Wicket, Tapestry, JSF + Hibernate EJBs etc.). In this world, I found most of my time was spent in learning the deep intricacies of the framework and fitting it to my use case. I began to hate every minute I spent on these frameworks. And then I disco…

I prefer a box full of ready made components, even if I don't use all of them, than hunting for Lego pieces.

Re: Fulcro Developers Guide: Single-page full-stack web applications in clj/cljs

#66

Post by aperiodic »

uxcolumbo wrote: post #62
aperiodic wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I was at Puppet (nee Puppet Labs) for four years, one of the larger Clojure shops to my knowledge (not that I've been keeping close tabs on who's picked it up recently). I switched jobs and language choice was not my #1 criterion. A very interesting opportunity that aligned well with my values (and paid better to boot), but was in a completely different tech stack (Python DS ecosystem, with some Scala). I love t…

Thanks for clarifying. Do you have a blog or is there another way to contact you? I'm interested in what you wrote in your profile.

Send me an email at dlp@aperiodic.org
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