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‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

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Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

#61

Post by jrudolph »

majewsky wrote: post #50
brtknr wrote: post #32

Drawing comparison between OpenStack and K8s is also invalid IMO... they operate at different levels of abstraction. You can use K8s with OpenStack as a cloud provider as with any other cloud provider. K8s is intended to abstract away the infrastructure that lies underneath and give you a consistent way to deploy services across different cloud providers.

In fact, my team does Kubernetes on OpenStack on Kubernetes. :) It's OpenStack on Kubernetes because we deploy the OpenStack components on a baremetal Kubernetes cluster (with actual payloads running in VMware), and it's Kubernetes on OpenStack because we have an addon service that allows customers to spin up Kubernetes on the VMware VMs created by OpenStack. We also dogfood this because the baremetal Kubernetes clus…

So you're running VIO / vmWare integrated OpenStack?

Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

#62

Post by namelosw »

If it is the New 'Windows vs. Linux' then K8s will prevail.

Because it's server-side market :P

But seriously there will be a better K8s eventually. For example, make K8s work as Heroku or AWS Lambda. After that, there's no point using bare cloud for most of the players.

Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

#64

Post by sklarsa »

jpgvm wrote: post #52
cs02rm0 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've hardly looked at k8s, it looked like a pain to get a docker-compose file running in it the last time I looked. I think there was a tool to translate it to something kubernetes could deal with. That said, after the last four months I've had of trying to get Route53, API Gateway, Lambdas, ECS, VPCs, Cognito, DynamoDB, S3, CloudFront, etc, etc running in CloudFormation I really can't imagine it's worse under any sl…

Translating something from docker-compose into k8s isn't generally hard. But yeah CFN is a nightmare, I wrote a bunch of tools to try make it suck less and contributed to stuff like cfndsl and I could still never get it to the point that I could have developers use it without an abstraction layer. k8s definitely helps with the "all my apps stuff in one place that is easy to see". There are some pitfalls to avoid thou…

Why not use helm? I'm looking into spinning up (and eventually productionizing) a k8s cluster at my job and I was leaning towards using helm since some pieces that I was thinking about using are installed via helm charts (https://github.com/kubernetes/ingress-nginx for example)

Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

#65

Post by danw1979 »

> Interestingly, the reasons AWS put forward for why private clouds fail will be just as true for themselves: enterprises can’t manage elastic demand properly, whether it’s in their own data centre or when they’re paying someone else.

This really rings true with me. I feel like Amazon aren't doing enough to tackle this problem though.... Does anyone else find the standard AWS tools for demand scaling to be like working against the grain in comparison to the rest of the platform ?

Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

#66

Post by xearl »

paulftw wrote: post #56
cs02rm0 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With k8s - you switched to it, now what? You have to buy server hardware, rent or build a room, run wires for electricity and broadband, build cooling, physical security, etc etc etc. I'm not sure that's the choice. You can run kubernetes in the cloud, can't you? e.g. EKS on Amazon.

So you also agree that there's no standoff between AWS and K8s, unlike an article titled "'AWS vs. K8s' Is the New 'Win vs Linux'" would suggest? It also talks about building a personal data center quite a few times (at least that's how I read it). K8s is likely to replace EC2, ECS, and all other unusable amazon bloat to become the default AWS API. But it's not going to damage AWS, it's going to enhance it and become…

but even in this reply you describe the standoff very well yourself: after k8s replaces all amazon bloat to become the default AWS api, k8s has effectively commoditised AWS. i think that's precisely the point OP is also making.

Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

#67

Post by jacques_chester »

mcqueenjordan wrote: post #57

Sorry, not following the logic here either. Not even close. It's a blog with ads from an author that is big into Docker. It's not ad hominem; it's just cui bono. The author put scare quotes around the "real workloads" AWS can handle/solve for. I'm not sure the author really has the experience to know what real big workloads look like. OpenBet? Barclays? Doesn't sound like a background in large scale technical problem…

The sticky part of Lambda isn't the API, it's the services and events you integrate with. The code you provide is small, necessarily your surface-to-volume ratio is much higher.

Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

#68

Post by philliphaydon »

martingxx wrote: post #44
trpc wrote: post #12

while I don't really understand how ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is related to ‘Windows vs. Linux’, I guess k8s is a threat to AWS primarily when it comes to EC2 just like it is a threat to commercial linux distros since it makes the underlying VM and host OS totally temporary and replaceable, but what can k8s do to AWS SaaSes (e.g. RDS, SNS, etc...)? almost nothing (even though it gives you the opportunity to migrate from one SaaS…

> what can k8s do to AWS SaaSes (e.g. RDS, SNS, etc...)? k8s has allowed us to not use RDS any more because we now host PostgreSQL inside k8s instead. It's a bit more overhead, but we're now portable and run in gcp too with the same k8s manifests and almost no porting effort. So yeah, we escaped the lock-in. And now we're not just tied to the AWS stuff and we're experimenting with cockroachdb and other products that…

Everyone keeps talking about vendor lock-in. In regards to RDS you can still export your database and move somewhere else. But we use it because we don’t want to manage the database, we don’t want to worry about availability zones and syncing the data and failing over for updates. I don’t want to setup k8s instead and configure it and maintain it. That stuff is boring for me.

Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

#69

Post by acdha »

rakoo wrote: post #48
carlsborg wrote: post #8

Inaccurate analogy. Container based compute is a very small part of the AWS ecosystem. You are missing the bigger picture. Companies are migrating to AWS for end to end managed infrastructure including directory services, databases (sql and non sql), managed ETL pipeline infrastructure, batch processes, backups, data processing and analytics at scale, high durability storage at scale, a host of mobile app services, e…

I think you're actually agreeing even more with the author. Windows has everything you need for most of the usages you would have, all of it is integrated and the out of the box experience is functional. Linux at the time was a big mess of different softwares with different guarantees of working, maintained by duct-tape bash scripts and custom configuration files. If you wanted something, you had to work to have it.

This was only true for end-user desktops. For technical work and servers, Windows had a few built-in things and a ton of things which could, with significant work, be installed — nothing like a simple apt-get install for years, which is why so many places switched rather than paying people to spend hours clicking through installers and then troubleshooting why it failed.

Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

#70

Post by solatic »

sklarsa wrote: post #64
jpgvm wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Translating something from docker-compose into k8s isn't generally hard. But yeah CFN is a nightmare, I wrote a bunch of tools to try make it suck less and contributed to stuff like cfndsl and I could still never get it to the point that I could have developers use it without an abstraction layer. k8s definitely helps with the "all my apps stuff in one place that is easy to see". There are some pitfalls to avoid thou…

Why not use helm? I'm looking into spinning up (and eventually productionizing) a k8s cluster at my job and I was leaning towards using helm since some pieces that I was thinking about using are installed via helm charts ( https://github.com/kubernetes/ingress-nginx for example)

If you use third-party Helm charts, you eventually need to add onto the generated objects in a way which the chart doesn't support, and then you're up a creek without a paddle. This is precisely the use case which Kustomize tries to fix and it was the only real strength which Helm had to begin with (i.e. the ease of installing third-party software on your cluster).

In the meantime, because you must install Helm into every namespace in your cluster into which you desire to install charts, it's a massive resource hog and security risk. Charts themselves also need to be hosted somewhere, so you end up needing to install Chartmuseum, Harbor, or Artifactory (if you didn't have Artifactory already), and they have their own operational costs.

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