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Fuck The Vessel

thebaffler.com

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Re: Fuck The Vessel

#61

Post by mcguire »

crazygringo wrote: post #29

I mean, I'm not a big fan of Hudson Yards... ...but this piece doesn't seem to make any coherent argument. Nowhere does she explain why she dislikes it aesthetically. She simply seems to dislike that it was designed to be Instagrammable (is that so bad for art/sculpture which is inherently visual?), has some bizarre thoughts on climbing staircases (she's against climbing the Eiffel Tower as well, does she hate exerci…

The author is: "Kate Wagner is the creator of the viral blog McMansionHell, which roasts the world’s ugliest houses from top to bottom, all while teaching about architecture and design."

Judging by http://mcmansionhell.com/101 she has strong opinions which are not immediately understandable, to me, anyway. (It seems like she would believe most of the parts of Europe I've seen and all those houses in the US that have been lived in and built on for decades to be architectural shitshows. But I can't confirm that.)

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#62

Post by phry »

ilovecaching wrote: post #43
whack wrote: post #39

This article is a perfect encapsulation of our current culture of contempt. It is no longer sufficient, or even possible, to just disagree or have different tastes. "I'm personally not a big fan of that building's aesthetics, but maybe there are others who do like it." That would have been a reasonable opinion to hold... instead we have: "Designed by Thomas Heatherwick, one of architecture’s premier grifters... The d…

I think you missed the crux of the argument which is that it’s very proletariat. It does nothing for the community and is designed to benifit the criminally wealthy. Also it’s ugly af. I hope I never have to work with someone with your tastes if you think that’s what beauty is.

> it’s very proletariat.

I think you have your terminology backwards here, I figure you meant bourgeoisie

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#63

Post by mcguire »

CptFribble wrote: post #52
crazygringo wrote: post #29

I mean, I'm not a big fan of Hudson Yards... ...but this piece doesn't seem to make any coherent argument. Nowhere does she explain why she dislikes it aesthetically. She simply seems to dislike that it was designed to be Instagrammable (is that so bad for art/sculpture which is inherently visual?), has some bizarre thoughts on climbing staircases (she's against climbing the Eiffel Tower as well, does she hate exerci…

(one of) the other layers is that its only purpose is to inflate real estate values of luxury apartments that already were built only to be sold to the criminally-wealthy international investor class that uses luxury US real estate as a form of international banking/money laundering, while masquerading in the press as a "community" and the Vessel itself as a "public space," when in reality it is anything but. The com…

See also the Gateway Arch in St. Louis and the Statue of Liberty.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#64

Post by mynameishere »

afpx wrote: post #38
pesmhey wrote: post #21

Classism works both ways. I can’t fucking stand poor people who have nothing more to hate on rich people about than that they have money. And the converse is true, rich people who think poverty is some moral failing. This article is riddled with, fuck people who have more than me. Ugh, get the fuck over yourself, no matter what social position you may have happened to find yourself in. Not ‘Fuck The Vessel’ just ‘Fuc…

Sure, and many rich do say, “I hate the poor.” The difference is that the rich are actually able to fuck over the poor. And, they often blatantly do so.

Has any rich person ever actually said that? Have many rich people said that: "I hate the poor"? They might act like it, sure, but actually said that...? And the actions are more about contempt than hatred. Contempt tends to go down, and hatred up, on the social scale.

I'm trying to think of actual instances...

Beggars should be abolished: it is irritating to give to them and it is irritating not to. --Nietzsche.

an old person without money is pathetic --Anon. from "Bookends" album, Simon and Garfunkel.

Maybe you travel in different circles? I sure don't love the poor, but I used to be really poor, so I feel I have the right.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#65

Post by csomar »

NYC has failed to cultivate and maintain public spaces. Its' parks sucks, its subway is dirty and old, it has tons of poor and homeless people. I'm certainly comparing to other cities (like London or HongKong) for its size and importance.

Hong Kong has much nicer public spaces. This means the public go to these public spaces and people socialize. That's not possible in NYC. Because the city public shared space is a piece of junk. People avoid it and segregate in select clubs/bars/restaurant. That means they don't go alone but with friends. So NYC is very circle based.

As the city public services gets shittier, the city becomes more like Paris and so are the people: Rude. The massive inflow of tourists doesn't help either. The article is just symptom: It just shows how frustrated Yankees are.

The city needs more spaces like the Hudson Yards. Spaces that integrate with the subway. Enable easy transfer, offer nice sitting areas, and let people socialize.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#66

Post by afpx »

mynameishere wrote: post #64
afpx wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and many rich do say, “I hate the poor.” The difference is that the rich are actually able to fuck over the poor. And, they often blatantly do so.

Has any rich person ever actually said that? Have many rich people said that: "I hate the poor"? They might act like it, sure, but actually said that...? And the actions are more about contempt than hatred. Contempt tends to go down, and hatred up, on the social scale. I'm trying to think of actual instances... Beggars should be abolished: it is irritating to give to them and it is irritating not to. --Nietzsche. an…

That you even ask that question shows how segregated we’ve become.

By the way, I also grew up poor - as in, growing up in the US with an outhouse poor. And, now I’m rich. And, yes, I hear that all the time.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#67

Post by mcguire »

pesmhey wrote: post #21

Classism works both ways. I can’t fucking stand poor people who have nothing more to hate on rich people about than that they have money. And the converse is true, rich people who think poverty is some moral failing. This article is riddled with, fuck people who have more than me. Ugh, get the fuck over yourself, no matter what social position you may have happened to find yourself in. Not ‘Fuck The Vessel’ just ‘Fuc…

"Kate Wagner holds a master's degree in audio science with a specialty in architectural acoustics from Johns Hopkins University's Peabody Conservatory." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMansion_Hell)

The author is not poor.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#68

Post by dluan »

This article is a criticism of capital, which is what The Baffler does.

The fact that comments here are pearl clutching over "tone" or "author's apparent empty life" is kind of amusing to watch. Partly because HN commenters and hackers would presumably agree with the article's criticism of something like IP-selfie ownership for the sole purpose of advertising and inflating value of nearby condos. But I think most folks here are triggered by the whiff of marxist tone.

Hudson yards is a project by real estate developers targeting other speculators, so it's not as bad as say gentrifying incumbent locals, or it's not necessarily about the opportunity cost of having a green park there instead.

It's just a fish-bowl example of how capital can work in its own world and feel so out of touch with the rest of the city. If you've ever walked around new CBD's in China in the 00's, you'd often find similar high rises flanked with empty luxury stores and it was just really obvious what the point of it was. Only there, there's no false pretense of high art or design, just money.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#69

Post by 0db532a0 »

viivaux wrote: post #48
0db532a0 wrote: post #9

TLDR: The author has still to come to terms with the meaninglessness, contrivance and absurdity of her own life and of everything around her, and has been pushed by a meaningless, contrived and absurd building to write a similarly meaningless and contrived article. Oblivious to this, she is pushes herself even further into the void of meaninglessness, contrivance and absurdity. The capitalist pigs score yet another g…

See that would all make sense if there weren't an alternative - non classist, non ugly, aesthetic and thoughtful artchitecture out there as an alternative; one explicitly referred to itfa. But you and pesmhey feel the need to ignore that part so you can shove your inane babble into the authors mouth to criticise. Could you not?

The thing that you and also Kate miss is that things like "classist", "ugly" and "aesthetic" are simply terms which define nothing objective and which reside in your head alone. You see a building and call it "classist", allowing the capitalist pigs to get your knickers in a twist once more. I see the same building, either call it "aesthetic" or "non-aesthetic" and move on.

Re: Fuck The Vessel

#70

Post by pesmhey »

geofft wrote: post #49
presscast wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is relevant to the parent post because there's legitimate reason for the poor to have animus against the rich, and not vice versa The parent poster is specifically referring to a specific type of unfounded animus. Namely: having no argument other than "they have more money than me" to justify said animus.

The parent poster wrote " poor people who have nothing more to hate on rich people about than that they have money ", which sounds like well-founded animus to me. Here's a way to think about it - what is the corresponding thing for the rich to hate on the poor for? Are the rich jealous of not having money? Are they envious of those who cannot pay more for housing simply because a building of questionable merit faces…

I've noticed that a lot of the animus that the more-fortunate of us humans have against the less-fortunate is based in a very deeply-hidden, but very present understanding that it could have easily been you. Like, you have to distance yourself from unfortunate circumstances, lest you become victim to them.

This is just a denial of the reality that no one is really given a choice about the circumstances of their lives. That goes for abilities and outcomes. It should be self-evident, that all men are created equal - not in ability or outcome, but in the fact that no one has a choice in the hand they are dealt.

The less-fortunate you are, the more grievances you have - legitimate grievances. My original post wasn't meant to de-legitimize anyone's founded grievances. I'm just starting to see this in these types of discussions, both online and irl, that the more we rail against members of difference classes, the more rigid those class structures become. Of course this is a slippery slope to telling people to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. That's not what I mean either.

edit: I got a little (ok, a lot) carried away with the language, and it definitely detracted from my point, and added nothing to the conversation.

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