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Java 12

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Re: Java 12

#61

Post by aardvark179 »

darksaints wrote: post #10

Anybody know how the graal project ties in with all of this? Is oracle effectively developing 3 different JVMs (OpenJDK, Oracle JDK, GraalVM)? Or is there some sort of convergence plan? From what I understand, graal has made a lot of headway with language interop, as well as a handful of specific memory optimizations and native compilation, but overall is lagging in pure throughput/latency performance behind hotspot.…

Graal is a JIT for Hotspot (and other things), you can already use it be turning on experimental features and enabling JVMCICompiler. Graalvm is that packaged up with the Truffle framework (and languages written for that), and SubstrateVM which allows programs to be ahead of time compiled and linked as executables with a minimal VM.

Re: Java 12

#62

Post by jimbokun »

_bxg1 wrote: post #55
hota_mazi wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence Applets, JavaBeans, and CORBA. What a loss. > Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, That stopped being an issue years ago. OpenJDK is a thing, you know? > Java on the web is dead, I don't think you have any idea about the hundreds of millions of lines of Java that power the web as you know it today. The rest…

> Java on the web is dead, >> I don't think you have any idea about the hundreds of millions of lines of Java that power the web as you know it today. Presumably they meant Java in the client, not the server.

"Presumably they meant Java in the client"

Android?

Re: Java 12

#63

Post by ses1984 »

ilovecaching wrote: post #36
ses1984 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Java ecosystem is still there and still rich. It didn't go away or stop growing because golang was released. You'd rather use wasm to write c to talk to javascript apis? Your case against Java might be more compelling if it wasn't so gross itself.

You're only rich if everyone else is poorer than you. At the point Golang, Javascript, Ruby, and Python (these are just the ones I use) have huge completely open source ecosystems. Java's ecosystem is no longer a convincing argument that we should ignore everything else about the language and it's place in the current line up.

No, they are all rich. But I would really hesitate to compare java to js, python, ruby, etc. They aren't as interchangeable.

I use all those languages too. Use the right tool for the job. Don't be dogmatic. And don't disparage others.

Would I start a new project in Java? Probably not. But I might reach for other jvm languages that were mentioned elsewhere. I'm definitely not too cool to work on an existing Java project. It's fine.

Re: Java 12

#64

Post by ilovecaching »

_bxg1 wrote: post #33
ilovecaching wrote: post #22

I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Why? Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence. Java no longer runs everywhere. Java on the web is dead, and you can now…

Java has evolved pretty far past its strict OOP roots. I haven't kept up with the last few versions, but it added lambda functions way back in Java 8, for example. There's definitely syntactic baggage holding it back in some ways, but it's added lots of features for more modern functional-programming styles (one mentioned in this release is expression-style switch statements). More importantly, the JVM ecosystem is m…

It seems to be a popular notion that adding constructs common in FP is somehow a modernization of C++ or Java. FP isn't a set of features, it's a style of programming. It's actually a bad idea to try to retrofit a paradigm on top of an existing language. You should build tools that do one thing well, and if they no longer suit your style of programming, you should switch to a tool that is designed to fit your needs.

A lot of my reasoning was criticizing the JVM itself, not Java. VM languages add unnecessary complexity in the post container world where ephemerality and kernel APIs (containers) can give the same advantages, although I think Kotlin and Clojure and remarkably good languages.

Re: Java 12

#65

Post by chrisseaton »

mehrdadn wrote: post #54
brianpgordon wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't crash, but what it does is somewhat complicated. There's a section in the OpenJDK wiki addressing this question: https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/shenandoah/Main#Main-F...

> Full GC. If nothing helped, for example, when Degenerated GC had not freed up enough memory, Full GC cycle would happen, and compact the heap to the max. Certain scenarios, like the unusually fragmented heap coupled with implementation performance bugs and overlooks, would be fixed only by Full GC. This last-ditch GC guarantees that application would not fail with OOM, if there is at least some memory is available.…

I mean that's effectively a deployment error. You're not supposed to run your application without enough head-room. You can degrade almost any GC by restricting the head-room. You're reading from the 'failure modes' section there.

Re: Java 12

#66

Post by Gimpei »

azhenley wrote: post #6

The most interesting new feature I think is the Shenandoah GC. The summary from [1]: "Add a new garbage collection (GC) algorithm named Shenandoah which reduces GC pause times by doing evacuation work concurrently with the running Java threads. Pause times with Shenandoah are independent of heap size, meaning you will have the same consistent pause times whether your heap is 200 MB or 200 GB." The original algorithm…

Will this help spark performance at all? I remember having to make a lot of GC tweaks in order to get some of the larger jobs to run.

Re: Java 12

#67

Post by coldtea »

ilovecaching wrote: post #22

I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Why? Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence. Java no longer runs everywhere. Java on the web is dead, and you can now…

>I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars.

Yeah, those poor devs with a rock solid, best of class, platform to write code on, with tons of libraries and tooling.

>Java no longer runs everywhere

It still runs everywhere where it matters. Nobody really cared if it could run on crappy smart tvs and other such BS SUN tried to push it. 99% of Java use has been for server work and enterprise development, and it remains there.

And on mobile, well, Android uses basically Java with a name-change.

>Java on the web is dead

Java on the web (Applets) was DOA, and has been dead for over 15 years. It's not gonna make any difference now.

>and you can now write ubiquitous apps in basically every language

Which again is neither here, nor there. People have been using Java as a very strong language for backend systems, application server side work, and enterprise stuff. And those deploy on at most one OS 99% of the time.

They don't use Java like e.g. Electron or QT. The only Java apps that are like that and are mainstream are basically IDEs.

>There's no reason to deal with the JVM and it's domain knowledge when you can write a nimble Go app for your backend and a Javascript app that will run on mobile, web, or desktop

Whatever.

>A VM language? You mean v8 sandboxing and web workers; WASM which lets me write C, C++, and Rust all of which can talk to Javascript APIs

How hipster. Meanwhile others do real work on Java, with finetuned GCs, mature libraries, and so on. I'm not sure where you've seen all this "WASM and Rust", as both are not even blips in production compared to Java adoption -- and wont be for a while, if ever.

>All of my services are stateless and ephemeral

Mine don't care much for the latest fads, so there's that.

>On the cloud it gets even worse for Java. Why use a meaty framework like Swing when I want to just spin up a bunch of micro services, or have an API gateway kickoff a bunch of lambda jobs.

I'm not ever sure what Swing has to do with a Cloud java deployment. Perhaps you meant Spring, but even so, it doesn't make sense.

And of course with Java you can always use something like Vert.x, which tops the performance charts for microservice work -- so much so, that the others are not even on the radar.

>Java also took OO in so many terrible directions.

2010 called, they want their arguments back.

Also, not sure if you've noticed, but Java is still in the top 3 of most in demand languages (along with JS and Python).

Perhaps your ideas about its death are premature, if not deluded?

Re: Java 12

#68

Post by jimbokun »

rb808 wrote: post #49
sabareesh wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I wish predicting future is this easy , as of now the place where I work we use lot of spring (Spring cloud) completly microservice and it is only reason I believe java is still alive. Spring makes things lot more easy for us atleast. But I have to agree with you regarding Oracle May be you will be interested in this article https://spring.io/blog/2019/03/07/has-there-ever-been-a-bett...

Ironicaly I'm the other way around. Java is a pretty good platform, save the GC pauses. However I really dont see what benefits Spring brings. Spring Boot is great for prototyping and trivial apps, but for big systems you really want to break it apart. DI is better done with ServiceLocators. Some of the smaller libraries like Spring Shell, Spring Mobile are junk. And I still see lots of XML config that you dont know…

"Spring Boot is great for prototyping and trivial apps, but for big systems you really want to break it apart."

Any practical advice for making this happen? I have a Spring Boot system I wrote and am responsible for, but now I just want the pain to stop.

Re: Java 12

#69

Post by coldtea »

ilovecaching wrote: post #64
_bxg1 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java has evolved pretty far past its strict OOP roots. I haven't kept up with the last few versions, but it added lambda functions way back in Java 8, for example. There's definitely syntactic baggage holding it back in some ways, but it's added lots of features for more modern functional-programming styles (one mentioned in this release is expression-style switch statements). More importantly, the JVM ecosystem is m…

It seems to be a popular notion that adding constructs common in FP is somehow a modernization of C++ or Java. FP isn't a set of features, it's a style of programming. It's actually a bad idea to try to retrofit a paradigm on top of an existing language. You should build tools that do one thing well, and if they no longer suit your style of programming, you should switch to a tool that is designed to fit your needs.…

>It seems to be a popular notion that adding constructs common in FP is somehow a modernization of C++ or Java. FP isn't a set of features, it's a style of programming.

And historically, nobody cared for that style of programming in its pure form (where "nobody" is in the casual sense: a few FP-lovers, but not the 95% of working programmers).

From 1960 to today it remains niche in its pure form, even the most popular language following it fully (e.g. Clojure or similar) is still a niche language.

We found out, on the other hand, that people care for mixing that style of programming with OO, imperative, reactive, and other styles.

And that's what modern JS, Java, C#, Rust, etc (even C++) give us.

And since FP is a style, it can be followed quite effectively in almost any language -- as long as it has some basic features, which, as you observed, Java has added.

Re: Java 12

#70

Post by yazr »

ellard wrote: post #32
ilovecaching wrote: post #22

I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Why? Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence. Java no longer runs everywhere. Java on the web is dead, and you can now…

Serious question: Isn't Java still one of the default languages if you are choosing a "safe" language to build and maintain a large piece of software? Considering how long it's been around and how many libraries exist for it now, i've generally viewed it as a language that's: - fast enough for most things without a lot of pitfalls/gotchas - easy enough to read for most developers - easy enough for most developers to…

> Isn't Java still one of the default languages ?

Yes.

There is no need to engage the GP - let him rant about Go and JS. Java is still huge, for both legacy and new projects.

For context - I started as a C/Kernel dev. I also spent 2 years with Java on mission critical backend code. Both have their uses.

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