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Dutch join backlash at expensive drugs by making their own

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Re: Dutch join backlash at expensive drugs by making their own

#61
post #48

This reminded me of an incident in which the Netherlands intercepted generic drugs en route to Brazil from India. https://www.kff.org/news-summary/india-brazil-launch-trade-d...

That's strange. Reading your comment, my first thought was WTF is the Dutch Navy doing intercepting shipments from India to Brazil.

Then, I read your link and had another WTF moment: why is a shipment from India to Brazil travelling through the Netherlands and thus subject to their customs? India->Netherlands->Brazil seems like an incredibly inefficient trade route.

Re: Dutch join backlash at expensive drugs by making their own

#62
post #37
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think that the marketing spend doesn't result in greater returns than without the spend in the first place? If a company could increase its bottom line by cancelling marketing spend, that's an easy equation to figure out. Or... maybe (profit after marketing - marketing spend) > (profit without marketing). And as (in a reasonable stable company) the research spend will be related to profit... marketing s…

In European countries the marketing spend is essentially zero for all companies since they are banned from advertising. As you say, marketing clearly does increase profits for the pharmaceutical companies in the U.S. However, from a societal point of view it seems to me that it is much better for society for there to be no marketing of drugs. My wife is a physician and listening to her and her colleagues they all hat…

> In European countries the marketing spend is essentially zero for all companies since they are banned from advertising.

Advertising direct to the public is banned in many countries, but not the US - I assume this is what you're referring to. However, pharma companies can and do spend billions on marketing to healthcare professionals within the EU.

> However, from a societal point of view it seems to me that it is much better for society for there to be no marketing of drugs.

Your point about the societal value of drug marketing is complex. In some cases, I totally agree with you that it's not money well spent - selling one beta blocker or statin against five others with broadly comparable data hardly helps the cause of humanity. However, in other cases the marketing/sales actually helps ensure that patients are given the drugs that they need - doctors aren't infallible, and not all doctors are created equally.

> The current system seems to incentivize companies to hold on to patents by making minor, insignificant changes to drugs to maximize profits.

This is actually relatively rare.

> They are incentivized to ignored exotic diseases that have too small of a market share for each individual disease but affect, collectively, a lot of people.

Like it or not, the overall cost of discovering a drug, then testing it all the way through the many phases over many years, is roughly billions. Rare diseases can be ignored because it's simply not sensible business to develop drugs for them. Unless a company can find a way of charging a very high price, or find short cuts to development, or the current system of regulations is eased, this won't change.

Re: Dutch join backlash at expensive drugs by making their own

#63

One thing that is typically not mentioned in these debates is the fundamental structure of the industry. Let's say someone finds a research compound which looks to be promising, and they start a new company to try to commercialize it. Often, they are looking at at least 1-2 decades to get that product to market. Assuming they don't sell out to a big company, they almost certainly have to go public before starting tri…

Maybe drug "companies" should be government entities then and not for-profit at all.

[deleted]

Re: Dutch join backlash at expensive drugs by making their own

#64
post #21
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The important question is... why is it ethical for a foundation to deliver a product at $300k/yr where the cost are borne by other people? [1] In my world that price would never be paid, since about €100k/yr would max out the qaly. They would still have their medicine albeit at a perhaps $1 billion profit / return on risk. I'll bet my ethical balls here that none of the small contributors to a CF foundation expect a…

The pharmaceutical company Vertex sells the drug for $300k. Because CF Foundation helped fund the development, they get royalties, just like universities sometimes do when they help develop a drug. This is great for CF because it’s mostly the insurance companies (and therefore healthy people) who are bearing the costs of the treatment. So the CF Foundation is “forcing donatations” from the healthy populace through in…

> This is great for CF because it’s mostly the insurance companies (and therefore healthy people) who are bearing the costs of the treatment.

Don't we all bear the cost of treatment in the form of higher insurance costs because insurance companies are paying exorbitant prices on drugs (among other things)?

Re: Dutch join backlash at expensive drugs by making their own

#65

One thing that is typically not mentioned in these debates is the fundamental structure of the industry. Let's say someone finds a research compound which looks to be promising, and they start a new company to try to commercialize it. Often, they are looking at at least 1-2 decades to get that product to market. Assuming they don't sell out to a big company, they almost certainly have to go public before starting tri…

Maybe drug "companies" should be government entities then and not for-profit at all.

I think the government can definitely fund certian types of research but in most developed countries the private sector commands so much more wealth that it would be a waste not to allow companies to develop drugs for profit. I would rather have expensive drugs than no drug at all. This isn’t even an argument about government efficiency but rather about the relative size of what can be done when the private sector is much larger than the government.

Re: Dutch join backlash at expensive drugs by making their own

#66

One thing that is typically not mentioned in these debates is the fundamental structure of the industry. Let's say someone finds a research compound which looks to be promising, and they start a new company to try to commercialize it. Often, they are looking at at least 1-2 decades to get that product to market. Assuming they don't sell out to a big company, they almost certainly have to go public before starting tri…

Maybe drug "companies" should be government entities then and not for-profit at all.

That's a viable stance to take, but it's not without problems:

1. The time horizons involved don't work well with government. The US can't get anything done over a 20 year time horizon, and the highly delayed ROI means projects would always be first on the chopping block when it came to cost cutting. As a side note, currently we can't even agree to adequately fund basic research in the country, let alone drug development.

2. R&D would inevitably be politicized. Some senator would want disease X researched because their kid has it etc. Some tax payers won't want to fund disease Y.

3. It places R&D and regulatory in the same high level entity. That sets up all sorts of conflicts of interest.

4. It complicates international trade. What if the US develops most drugs. What should Europe be charged for them? Surely products can't be open sourced because one group of tax payers paid for them and would want ROI etc.

5. Similarly, who decides pricing for all the US buyers? Get ready for massively complicated procurement based on tons of different rules.

Re: Dutch join backlash at expensive drugs by making their own

#67
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to make such a conspiratorial claim, then the onus is on you to provide the proof. I think the answer is probably a little bit more grey FYI.

Seems likely either drugs would end up being used, or government would stop funding drug R&D research. Saying funding would continue without any benifits seems to be the least likely outcome. Personally, I would be fine stopping all public drug research, but I suspect more people would want to continue...

How would the drugs be used? They still need another 5 years and hundreds of millions of dollars before they are approved?

Re: Dutch join backlash at expensive drugs by making their own

#68

One thing that is typically not mentioned in these debates is the fundamental structure of the industry. Let's say someone finds a research compound which looks to be promising, and they start a new company to try to commercialize it. Often, they are looking at at least 1-2 decades to get that product to market. Assuming they don't sell out to a big company, they almost certainly have to go public before starting tri…

Maybe drug "companies" should be government entities then and not for-profit at all.

One could make a pretty good argument that a government funded drug research system would end up with more expensive drugs (in the form of higher taxes) than a for profit system

Drugs, as a whole, aren't that expensive today compared to other healthcare. They make up 9.8% of US health care expenditure, which is pretty much middle of the pack compared to OECD countries. Hospitals, largely "non profit" (but sometimes massively profitable) make up 35%. But drugs feel more expensive bc copays are typically higher for drugs than for medical care

As it stands today the drug industry spends ~$200B a year to get 20-50 new FDA approved drugs a year. Virtually no fda approved drugs are developed solely by academia. NIH budget is $30-35B and on a steady long term decline. So you'd have a massive taxpayer expense just to build out that r&d function

Then you'd have to build out manufacturing. And some sales and marketing analog -- even if you aren't trying to profit, somebody needs to go out and tell doctors about your new drug and share with them very detailed data about how the drug works, what patients it works for, compared to the competition. Doctors can't stay on top of this themselves -- they are too busy and there's too much info

Then you'd need to build out some administrative function and some way to decide what projects move forward at what stage. This is where publicly funded drug research would probably massively underperform private for profit r&d

If you are making drugs for profit, you have a strong incentive to be efficient with your research. If not you go out of business. The more these decisions are driven by politics rather than profit motive, the less productive r&d is. And r&d cost and productivity is the reason drugs are expensive

There's evidence that startups are 10x more productive at r&d than pharma and it isn't crazy to attribute a lot of that to less politics

As of now something like 30-50% of published academic findings are thought to be false. 30%+ of all NIH money goes to "overhead", i.e. Profit to universities. And yields no fda approved drugs without private company investment

Re: Dutch join backlash at expensive drugs by making their own

#69

It's worth noting that pharmacists in The Netherlands have a doctorate and the same training requirements as MDs (the study last until 24/25 with no skip years). The requirements are considerably lower in other countries (in the UK for example they just need a BSc). Source: my wife is a pharmacist and could have worked in the UK after only completing 1/3rd of her study.

In the US it takes:

* 4 years undergrad, of which 90 credit hours must be a specific series of courses * 4 years PharmD, doctorate program * 1800 hours of internship

At this point a student has met all requirements to sit for the two license exams (NAPLEX and MPJE[^1]):).

Many students will elect for an additional period of education due to the competitive nature of pharmacist jobs in the USA. Those two extra opportunities are:

* 2 years of residency; followed by, * 2-3 years of fellowship

Most pharmacists at a common drug store will not have the last 4 or 5 years of study. However most pharmacists in research or synthesis (including at both manufacturers and pharmacies) will have these two final steps of education due to just how competitive these jobs are.

Briefly there was also a 6 year accelerated pharmacy track (BS+) however this is no longer allowed and any practicing pharmacists with these credentials have to take a non-degree PharmD program to meet the new requirements. At this point in time I don't know if any practicing pharmacists still only hold the accelerated credentials.

[^1]: AK, CA, and VA have their own jurisprudence exams and do not accept the Multistate Pharmacy Jurisprudence Exam

Re: Dutch join backlash at expensive drugs by making their own

#70
post #67
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems likely either drugs would end up being used, or government would stop funding drug R&D research. Saying funding would continue without any benifits seems to be the least likely outcome. Personally, I would be fine stopping all public drug research, but I suspect more people would want to continue...

How would the drugs be used? They still need another 5 years and hundreds of millions of dollars before they are approved?

Presumably, if they continue to fund research, public entities would then pay to finish the process. This would mean either fewer drugs or more money for R&D.

In the end when you change one part of the process you need to assume other parts of a related system will change in some manor.

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