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The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

theatlantic.com

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Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#61

Post by war1025 »

vonmoltke wrote: post #36
simonsarris wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People going into college don't even get an expansive view of how debt works, and that's what they end college with the most of. I don't think that view is missing, I think people do not value college like they claim they do if that premise (getting an expansive view of human knowledge) is the goal. Of course that's a great goal, but its also something that should have been happening all the way to adulthood (16-18 y…

> We cannot even make high school graduation in the USA contingent on being able to read. In what states?

Just doing a quick search online, came across this article which suggests 19% of high school graduates are functionally illiterate.

http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blog/32-million-us-adults...

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#62

Post by IdiocyInAction »

squozzer wrote: post #23

I'm a regular college grad, but always liked working on my own car (and didn't always trust professional mechanics.) That lead me to consider becoming an auto mechanic at one time but after hearing some stories - and looking at the pay scales - I jumped back on my desk and rode off into the sunset. The stories - 1) Constant complaints by mgmt about productivity. 2) Grueling work schedules 3) Pressure to upsell additi…

I actually know a few people in the trades. There are several caveats when working there.

1. Your advancement opportunities are often far more limited; often, advancing means founding your own company, which can be really hard depending on the competition.

2. It's absolute hell on your body.

3. It has far higher risk of injury.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#63

Post by JamesBarney »

atiffany wrote: post #52
ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

What if there were humanities bootcamps? That probably sounds like a joke...but why should a traditional expensive university be the only structured way to get exposure to broader human knowledge? An intensive bootcamp model doesn’t actually make sense for breadth (they are designed for the opposite)...but if you told me I could be part of a structured organization in my city where I’d be introduced to interesting br…

But would you be 5 months off of work and $15,000 interested?

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#64

Post by claudiulodro »

I blame the recession more than any stigma. There is a stigma around working at McDonalds, not skilled trades.

I and many other millenials definitely applied for trade apprenticeships back when we got out of high school. In my case after doing very well on the electrician apprentice entrance exams I was still 200th in line because of the recession, and they weren't really onboarding many new apprentices. I ended up going to college instead, am doing well as a software engineer, and there is a huge shortage of electricians now . . .

Personally, it would have definitely been nice to work with my hands and not have student loans.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#65

Post by IdiocyInAction »

jacquesm wrote: post #44
fullshark wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor return on investment given risks involved, you're better off offloading that cost of education/training to the individual and then just hiring them when they signal they are worthy of employment.

I have hired high school drop-outs and academics, both the best and the worst performers came in roughly equal proportions from both groups.

That is because the signal that college is supposed to provide has also been devalued to an extreme degree. It's simple - a bachelor's degree will soon be the equivalent of a high school diploma.

That is why for a lot of roles a motivated, smart high-school dropout is a better hire than a college student.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#66

Post by invalidOrTaken »

SeanDav wrote: post #42
ngngngng wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a successful college dropout, and I completely disagree. One of the strongest motivators for me leaving school after 1 year was the realization that virtually all of my classes gave me no more benefit than if I had just purchased the textbook and read it myself. As for every other classroom benefit, there are brilliant mentors all over the internet I can discuss what i'm learning with whenever I choose, without h…

A large component of a university education is not so much what you learn at university, but the doors it can open for you later. In general (with some exceptions of course) it is unlikely you would be using very much of your university knowledge after a few years in your job in any case. You can have a very successful career without a college / university education, it is just easier to do the same with such an educ…

If this is true, it does not bode well for universities.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#67

Post by rjf72 »

ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

So you would say your average 22 year old college grad has "an expansive view of human knowledge"? I realize this sounds like it should be a strawman, but it is not! That follows directly from your supposition that 'college is good because it provides an expansive view of human knowledge.' If this is at all true then your average grad should have something at least vaguely resembling an expansive view of human knowledge.

I think university can nicely compliment individuals' own personal strengths and attributes, but I do not think a university can turn a lump of coal into a diamond no matter how hard it may press. To take for instance Harvard, I think Harvard graduates are Harvard graduates long before graduating from Harvard - in some cases before they're even admitted.

Abraham Lincoln as an extreme example had less than a year of formal schooling, giving up on formal education to help to take care of his family. Far from being an ignorant redneck, as would be the typical caricature of a person with no education running around in on rural land with overalls with a axe, he loved reading and taught himself an immense amount about the world and society. And this is in an era when access to information was exponentially more difficult and expensive to come by. Today it's easier than ever. In a different time he'd be another Harvard grad with people wowed at the caliber of individuals they continually manage to produce. No, it's the caliber of individuals that they manage to attract.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#68

Post by snazz »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #43
jteppinette wrote: post #34

If students are coming out of 12 years of general education needing more general education, that is a failure of the public school system. We should fix that instead of pushing people into more school. After 12 years of general education, how do you justify more? In my opinion, we should be pushing specialized education at a younger age. When students exit high school, they should have skills that they can expand or…

> After 12 years of general education, how do you justify more? A lot of the concepts you explore in university arts classes are things that a 12 year old just won't understand. Exploring subjects in a deep and meaningful way isn't possible until you've got your full adult toolkit of emotions and experience. > In my opinion, we should be pushing specialized education at a younger age. When students exit high school,…

12 years of school, not 12 years of age. In the US, a student would be 17 or 18 after their full 12 years.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#69

Post by curtis »

I'm inclined to think that there ought to be a four year college degree that teaches a number of different trade skills as part of its core curriculum. A student in such a program might take history and mathematics courses similar to other college students, but would also learn concrete skills like welding, electrical wiring, HVAC, etc. The goal would be to have a graduate that might be able to find work in a variety of different trades, not just one particular one, and also provide graduates with some of the more traditional educational breadth associated with university.

University ought to make you a more rounded person, and a better citizen, and it ought to make you more employable, all three.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#70

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

ngngngng wrote: post #31
ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

I'm a successful college dropout, and I completely disagree. One of the strongest motivators for me leaving school after 1 year was the realization that virtually all of my classes gave me no more benefit than if I had just purchased the textbook and read it myself. As for every other classroom benefit, there are brilliant mentors all over the internet I can discuss what i'm learning with whenever I choose, without h…

> One of the strongest motivators for me leaving school after 1 year was the realization that virtually all of my classes gave me no more benefit than if I had just purchased the textbook and read it myself.

And did you? Have you read and mastered all the textbooks necessary to allow you to pass the necessary exams to get a degree or to get a solid score on the GRE for your academic specialization? If not, that realization, even if it's true for you and others, isn't particularly useful.

Most people can't or won't do the level of self-study needed.

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