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Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

nytimes.com

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Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#61

Post by Natsu »

forkandwait wrote: post #57
jdietrich wrote: post #55

If we really cared, we could increase the quality of teaching beyond all recognition. It wouldn't be remotely difficult. Massively increase pay for teachers, tripling or quadrupling pay at every level. Mandate a specific postgraduate qualification and a statutory minimum of continuing professional development. Recruit only the best and the brightest, specifically seeking out graduates from the best universities. Adve…

We don't revolutionize teaching because TENURE AND SENIORITY RULES ARE LOCKED DOWN BY THE UNIONS. Want to revolutionize teaching (and save some money)? Break the unions and fire the worst 10% of the teaching staff. Then do it again next year. (Edit: we really DO care about teaching, and spend enormous amounts of tax payers dollars and collective worry on it.)

> Want to revolutionize teaching (and save some money)? Break the unions and fire the worst 10% of the teaching staff. Then do it again next year.

That only works if you're good at recognizing the bottom 10% and have tight anti-cheating controls. Otherwise, things will go straight to hell. Also, you're neglecting the fact that it'll destroy cooperation among the teachers, because it turns things into a "it's either him or me, and it's not going to be me" scenario. Neither effect is conductive to a better or more effective school environment.

While the idea of firing bad teachers has a lot of merit, handling it in such a way is a terrible idea. That's the sort of quick fix bad managers come up with and one of the ways bad managers can help destroy an entire organization.

But it's a lot easier to give out fixes like these than it is to understand problems, so such ideas are remarkably prevalent. That probably explains why the change X by Y% mentality is lampooned in so many Dilbert cartoons.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#62

Post by Natsu »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #28
wheaties wrote: post #3

This is easy to say but hard to do. "Based on excellence" is the mantra I've heard from software development circles for years and yet... 1. How many of us have lost productivity because some other developer ran rough-shod through code caring not for maintainability, readability, or even extensibility? Which one was praised and which one rewarded? Doesn't apply to teachers? Ever have a dud who couldn't do simple math…

Regarding 2), you do it via Value Added Modeling. You build a statistical predictor of student performance (based on standardized test scores) then measure Performance = Avg(Actual - predicted).

> You build a statistical predictor of student performance (based on standardized test scores) then measure Performance = Avg(Actual - predicted).

And then you watch student performance get gamed by the teachers. There are all kinds of ways: turn a blind eye to cheating, move poor performers to others schools (including by getting them to graduate when they shouldn't), alter their tests (this is already being done under NCLB according to several news reports), ...

You're better off by having skilled teachers rate the other teachers. People aren't as easily gamed as systems of rules are.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#63

Post by pmb »

forkandwait wrote: post #57
jdietrich wrote: post #55

If we really cared, we could increase the quality of teaching beyond all recognition. It wouldn't be remotely difficult. Massively increase pay for teachers, tripling or quadrupling pay at every level. Mandate a specific postgraduate qualification and a statutory minimum of continuing professional development. Recruit only the best and the brightest, specifically seeking out graduates from the best universities. Adve…

We don't revolutionize teaching because TENURE AND SENIORITY RULES ARE LOCKED DOWN BY THE UNIONS. Want to revolutionize teaching (and save some money)? Break the unions and fire the worst 10% of the teaching staff. Then do it again next year. (Edit: we really DO care about teaching, and spend enormous amounts of tax payers dollars and collective worry on it.)

The unions? That's your bad guy here? Teachers are poorly-paid and looked-down-upon in our society and you are blaming the only organization which sticks up for them? The unions suck, certainly, but firing teachers only works if there is a ready supply of quality replacements. Plus, if you remove the perk of job security, you are going to have to significantly increase teacher pay to compensate.

Even worse than this, you assume that we have a good way of measuring teacher quality. The unions are a red herring.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#64

Post by jdietrich »

forkandwait wrote: post #57
jdietrich wrote: post #55

If we really cared, we could increase the quality of teaching beyond all recognition. It wouldn't be remotely difficult. Massively increase pay for teachers, tripling or quadrupling pay at every level. Mandate a specific postgraduate qualification and a statutory minimum of continuing professional development. Recruit only the best and the brightest, specifically seeking out graduates from the best universities. Adve…

We don't revolutionize teaching because TENURE AND SENIORITY RULES ARE LOCKED DOWN BY THE UNIONS. Want to revolutionize teaching (and save some money)? Break the unions and fire the worst 10% of the teaching staff. Then do it again next year. (Edit: we really DO care about teaching, and spend enormous amounts of tax payers dollars and collective worry on it.)

Why haven't the unions been broken? Nobody would tolerate unions that protected incompetent lawyers or doctors. Union-breaking is practically a science these days, it's neither expensive nor difficult, especially against a workforce with no ability to mount a meaningfully disruptive strike. It appears to me that there simply isn't the political will to do it. The teaching unions make more noise than parents and students, so they win. We return to my basic thesis, that we don't care as much about education as we'd like to think.

If you just fire the worst 10% every year, you just make teaching less attractive. As it stands, teaching is sufficiently low-status, poorly paid and unpleasant that the only people who go into it are a rare few who really want to teach and a majority who aren't competent enough to do anything else. You can't just fire bad teachers, you need to recruit good ones. For the moment, only a martyr or an idiot would decide to teach.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#65

Post by gte910h »

forkandwait wrote: post #57
jdietrich wrote: post #55

If we really cared, we could increase the quality of teaching beyond all recognition. It wouldn't be remotely difficult. Massively increase pay for teachers, tripling or quadrupling pay at every level. Mandate a specific postgraduate qualification and a statutory minimum of continuing professional development. Recruit only the best and the brightest, specifically seeking out graduates from the best universities. Adve…

We don't revolutionize teaching because TENURE AND SENIORITY RULES ARE LOCKED DOWN BY THE UNIONS. Want to revolutionize teaching (and save some money)? Break the unions and fire the worst 10% of the teaching staff. Then do it again next year. (Edit: we really DO care about teaching, and spend enormous amounts of tax payers dollars and collective worry on it.)

The unions would happily cancel much of the seniority rules for an over 2x raise of salary.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#66

Post by yummyfajitas »

jdietrich wrote: post #55

If we really cared, we could increase the quality of teaching beyond all recognition. It wouldn't be remotely difficult. Massively increase pay for teachers, tripling or quadrupling pay at every level. Mandate a specific postgraduate qualification and a statutory minimum of continuing professional development. Recruit only the best and the brightest, specifically seeking out graduates from the best universities. Adve…

Relative to the Military or Social Security budgets, the cost would barely even register on the balance sheet.

WTF? We already spent more on education than the military ($859B > $731B, circa 2008, 2009 numbers not available yet). If we tripled spending, education would be bigger than SS, military, medicare and medicaid combined. Unless you are Paul Krugman, I think that level of spending would register on the balance sheet.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/

Further, teachers are already paid roughly as well as engineers (per month worked, not per calendar year). See this thread for details:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1673075

Further, do you have evidence that our "best and brightest" would provide significantly better education than the people we get now? Going by pay/education level, I probably qualify as best and brightest. But I wasn't a great teacher at all.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#67

Post by brg »

jdietrich wrote: post #55

If we really cared, we could increase the quality of teaching beyond all recognition. It wouldn't be remotely difficult. Massively increase pay for teachers, tripling or quadrupling pay at every level. Mandate a specific postgraduate qualification and a statutory minimum of continuing professional development. Recruit only the best and the brightest, specifically seeking out graduates from the best universities. Adve…

The current pay for teaching is already astronomical, although admittedly entry level pay is poor and benefits only come with some seniority.

To enumerate what needs to be considered in pay, 1. 100% health care coverage for individuals and families. 2. Vacation on top of all major holidays off. 3. Teachers have student loan forgiveness of 100% after 5 years of seniority. 4. They need not pay social security instead leverage a percentage into private fund. 5. By the rule of 90 can retire at 56 with 80% pay for the rest of their lives, not just to social security age. 6. Health care benefits are extended through retirement on top of medicare. 7. Annual pay raise regardless of individual or district wide performance 8. Immediate pay increases for graduate study or other "improvement" 9. Employment that is not geographically limited 10. 8 months of work, during which attendance is only required 5 days a week from 7-4.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#68

Post by brg »

jdietrich wrote: post #64
forkandwait wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't revolutionize teaching because TENURE AND SENIORITY RULES ARE LOCKED DOWN BY THE UNIONS. Want to revolutionize teaching (and save some money)? Break the unions and fire the worst 10% of the teaching staff. Then do it again next year. (Edit: we really DO care about teaching, and spend enormous amounts of tax payers dollars and collective worry on it.)

Why haven't the unions been broken? Nobody would tolerate unions that protected incompetent lawyers or doctors. Union-breaking is practically a science these days, it's neither expensive nor difficult, especially against a workforce with no ability to mount a meaningfully disruptive strike. It appears to me that there simply isn't the political will to do it. The teaching unions make more noise than parents and stude…

Who has an incentive to work against public unions? Public unions operate in a monopoly for which one business can not be undercut. And after all, public unions vote.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#69

Post by yummyfajitas »

Natsu wrote: post #62
yummyfajitas wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding 2), you do it via Value Added Modeling. You build a statistical predictor of student performance (based on standardized test scores) then measure Performance = Avg(Actual - predicted).

> You build a statistical predictor of student performance (based on standardized test scores) then measure Performance = Avg(Actual - predicted). And then you watch student performance get gamed by the teachers. There are all kinds of ways: turn a blind eye to cheating, move poor performers to others schools (including by getting them to graduate when they shouldn't), alter their tests (this is already being done un…

Easy solutions to your problems: "turn a blind eye to cheating" "alter their tests"

Tests are given by independent proctors and designed by an independent agency. In much the same way, the DOD rates Halliburton's performance - it's not great, but it's better than Halliburton doing their own performance ratings.

move poor performers to others schools (including by getting them to graduate when they shouldn't)

Won't help with VAM. If you get rid of the poor performers, the predicted value of the people remaining will increase. Thus, you just made your job higher - the bar has been raised.

People aren't as easily gamed as systems of rules are.

I don't even know how to respond to this.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#70

Post by brg »

gte910h wrote: post #65
forkandwait wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't revolutionize teaching because TENURE AND SENIORITY RULES ARE LOCKED DOWN BY THE UNIONS. Want to revolutionize teaching (and save some money)? Break the unions and fire the worst 10% of the teaching staff. Then do it again next year. (Edit: we really DO care about teaching, and spend enormous amounts of tax payers dollars and collective worry on it.)

The unions would happily cancel much of the seniority rules for an over 2x raise of salary.

If union voters have the same distribution of that of public voters, then the most active and vocal will be those with retirement in mind. I think it would be hard sell to get these voters to agree to a change that will immediately affect their near-term future.
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