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Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

governor.ny.gov

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Re: Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

#61

Post by k_sh »

presty wrote: post #38

Quote of the Day: "The seventy percent of New Yorkers who supported Amazon and now vent their anger also bear responsibility and must learn that the silent majority should not be silent because they can lose to the vocal minority and self-interested politicians."

I'm glad we're waking up to this fact.

It's not enough to hold a belief... in our system, action is required. I think this is why young people are so frequently screwed by political decisions and policy - we are, uncoincidentally, the age group that votes least often.

Re: Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

#62

Post by inoop »

smallgovt wrote: post #2

I think it's sad that the vocal minority was able to alter this decision. As the letter mentions, the project would have brought $27b in revenue to the state. This magnitude of revenue is material considering the fact that the state only collected $76b in taxes in the last reported fiscal year. I think there's reason to debate whether large corps should be able to hold an auction like this, but given the place we fin…

> I think there's reason to debate whether large corps should be able to hold an auction like this

It wasn't an auction. As the letter points out, each location put in a single, sealed bid, invisible to everybody else. There were no multiple rounds of bidding, as is typical for an auction.

Re: Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

#63

Post by berberous »

otterley wrote: post #42
mobilefriendly wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Empire State Development was to award Amazon a cash grant of $325 million from taxpayers. This is corporate welfare and a kind of corruption. Congress should ban all government subsidies that are one-off and negotiated in secret with individual companies. There's an equal protection under the law issue.

As an attorney, I’m curious as to how you think a constitutional equal protection issue is at stake here. I’m unaware of any case law that would suggest so.

Here's an article by a graduate of GW law arguing it could be an equal protection issue: https://taxprof.typepad.com/files/65st0033.pdf

I didn't actually read it, so I'm not sure how sound his argument is. Even if plausible, it's obviously just an article by a recent law grad and not actually the clear controlling law today.

Re: Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

#64

Post by inoop »

deogeo wrote: post #8
smallgovt wrote: post #2

I think it's sad that the vocal minority was able to alter this decision. As the letter mentions, the project would have brought $27b in revenue to the state. This magnitude of revenue is material considering the fact that the state only collected $76b in taxes in the last reported fiscal year. I think there's reason to debate whether large corps should be able to hold an auction like this, but given the place we fin…

> there's no question this would have been a huge win for NY. But a loss for the US as a whole, assuming the HQ still gets built, but without special tax exemptions.

Actually no, because other locations would have given tax incentives, too. In fact, LIC wasn't even one of the highest ones by that metric. For example, Newark was offering $7bn:

https://www.seattlebusinessmag.com/business-operations/new-j...

It's also important to realize that the majority of that $3bn would have come from pre-existing programs open to any company moving to LIC.

Re: Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

#65

Post by paulgb »

inoop wrote: post #62
smallgovt wrote: post #2

I think it's sad that the vocal minority was able to alter this decision. As the letter mentions, the project would have brought $27b in revenue to the state. This magnitude of revenue is material considering the fact that the state only collected $76b in taxes in the last reported fiscal year. I think there's reason to debate whether large corps should be able to hold an auction like this, but given the place we fin…

> I think there's reason to debate whether large corps should be able to hold an auction like this It wasn't an auction. As the letter points out, each location put in a single, sealed bid, invisible to everybody else. There were no multiple rounds of bidding, as is typical for an auction.

You've literally described a silent auction.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-price_sealed-bid_aucti...

Re: Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

#66

Post by protomyth »

Ironically, much of the visible 'local' opposition, which was happy to appear at press conferences and protest at City Council hearings during work hours, were actual organizers paid by one union: RWDSU. (If you are wondering if that is even legal, probably not).

That is a pretty strong accusation to put in writing. I get the feeling that some investigation is going to happen on that one. Paid protestors presented as "concerned citizens" is not exactly a new tactic, but money is a lot easier to track these days.

Re: Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

#67

Post by thereisnospork »

hprotagonist wrote: post #47
Svoka wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with giving Amazon billion dollar for building an office? Just to put it in perspective, lets say they would create 30000 jobs with average pay of $80000/year. That is $2.4 billion in just salaries over single year. According to random tax calculator I found online it is about 0.7 billions in taxes every year. This is crazy ROI. If I could put money which would have 70% safe yearly return that would be i…

foxconn made very similar promises in wisconsin. that worked out really poorly indeed. GE made similar promises in boston. that’s worked out really poorly indeed.

And amazon's incentives were tied to the number of jobs and how much they paid.

Re: Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

#68

Post by berberous »

bpp wrote: post #58
otterley wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an attorney, I’m curious as to how you think a constitutional equal protection issue is at stake here. I’m unaware of any case law that would suggest so.

I'm curious why Congress has chosen not to regulate (or ban) the grant of tax incentives to companies as enticements for development; this seems to easily fall under the interstate commerce clause. All states lose out when they compete against each other in this way.

There was actually a case where the court of appeals held these types of tax breaks to violate the commerce clause, but in 2006, the Supreme Court dismissed the case on a procedural issue (that the taxpayers did not have standing). See the below article for more.

https://www.citylab.com/life/2018/01/the-case-for-the-case-a...

Re: Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

#69

Post by spenczar5 »

inoop wrote: post #62
smallgovt wrote: post #2

I think it's sad that the vocal minority was able to alter this decision. As the letter mentions, the project would have brought $27b in revenue to the state. This magnitude of revenue is material considering the fact that the state only collected $76b in taxes in the last reported fiscal year. I think there's reason to debate whether large corps should be able to hold an auction like this, but given the place we fin…

> I think there's reason to debate whether large corps should be able to hold an auction like this It wasn't an auction. As the letter points out, each location put in a single, sealed bid, invisible to everybody else. There were no multiple rounds of bidding, as is typical for an auction.

Eh, a sealed first-price auction is still an auction. It’s fair to call it that.

Re: Open Letter from New York State Budget Director Robert Mujica Regarding Amazon

#70

Post by hprotagonist »

thereisnospork wrote: post #67
hprotagonist wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

foxconn made very similar promises in wisconsin. that worked out really poorly indeed. GE made similar promises in boston. that’s worked out really poorly indeed.

And amazon's incentives were tied to the number of jobs and how much they paid.

so were GE’s.
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