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Do Jails Kill People?

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Re: Do Jails Kill People?

#61

Post by kwhitefoot »

CamTin wrote: post #29
blfr wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how does it relate to brutality on Rikers Island? What is the relevance to the OP?

If you do elect for a trial, you are going to be waiting for a long time (on Rikers), because the system is overloaded and isn't actually provisioned to provide justice for the volume of people forced through it. This is the same reason that prosecutors are pressured to plead everyone out and public defenders are pressured to take those deals. It's easy to score public dollars to hire cops and build prisons, but it's…

Does any other country have a system like plea bargaining? I mean officially sanctioned and on something like the same scale.

> easy to score public dollars to hire cops and build prisons, but it's much harder to add judges, public defenders, clerks, and courtrooms

If other countries do not have plea bargaining then how does this economic argument work in the US but , apparently, not elsewhere.

I ask this because I get the impression that the US is the only country that has an official plea bargaining system.

Re: Do Jails Kill People?

#62

Post by kakarot »

zoul wrote: post #56
kakarot wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public facility ostensibly, but essentially privately owned because the mayor's son is the district prosecutor, the (at the time) county's only judge, mayor and sheriff are political best buds, and the mayor is the bail bondsman for the county. To give you a better idea: Someone I know tried running against the district prosecutor last year, and ended up getting thrown in jail for made-up charges which magically appe…

Sounds like a great story for investigative media. Are there none in the region?

Some stories made it into a couple surrounding local newspapers, not within the county itself afaik. This person is a lawyer and has some connections and is trying to involve the FBI.

I myself had begun the task of gathering evidence about my arresting officer, who was actively manufacturing and distributing methamphetamine. I personally witnessed this officer engage in smurfing, and have surveillance photographs of her engaging in drug deals.

My plan was to take this evidence to the nearest local FBI office, but after discussing the situation with several former police officers I wasn't convinced of my safety or that the officer wouldn't be tipped off, so I eventually just got out of the town and didn't look back because they were trying to make things really bad for me. This officer has a personal vendetta against me and friends of mine and would frequently harass and threaten us.

I tried contacting the ACLU and soliciting free legal assistance once when my conviction took place, but at the time the barrier was $1000's of dollars of court records from several appearances needed to prove my situation, which I didn't have the money for at the time. AFAIK I'm no longer able to appeal the conviction because of the amount of time passed.

Re: Do Jails Kill People?

#63

Post by amvalo »

kakarot wrote: post #62
zoul wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a great story for investigative media. Are there none in the region?

Some stories made it into a couple surrounding local newspapers, not within the county itself afaik. This person is a lawyer and has some connections and is trying to involve the FBI. I myself had begun the task of gathering evidence about my arresting officer, who was actively manufacturing and distributing methamphetamine. I personally witnessed this officer engage in smurfing, and have surveillance photographs of…

What region of the US is this?

Re: Do Jails Kill People?

#64

Post by Waterluvian »

kakarot wrote: post #45

My experience with jail: I was having severe heart palpitations in jail and the guards would not give me my medicine. When I got irate they would threaten to throw me in the hole without food and water for a few days. I also have a spine disorder that brings me extreme discomfort and the cots were the same units they'd ordered in the sixties. No stuffing at all, and I would wake up slightly paralyzed waist up for a f…

This is the thing that scares me about police, jails, and prisons, especially when visiting the U.S.

Regardless of what the law is, who is right, or who is wrong, you find yourself under the control, care, and protection of some of the lowest grade of people society has to offer.

Re: Do Jails Kill People?

#65

Post by devoply »

Waterluvian wrote: post #64
kakarot wrote: post #45

My experience with jail: I was having severe heart palpitations in jail and the guards would not give me my medicine. When I got irate they would threaten to throw me in the hole without food and water for a few days. I also have a spine disorder that brings me extreme discomfort and the cots were the same units they'd ordered in the sixties. No stuffing at all, and I would wake up slightly paralyzed waist up for a f…

This is the thing that scares me about police, jails, and prisons, especially when visiting the U.S. Regardless of what the law is, who is right, or who is wrong, you find yourself under the control, care, and protection of some of the lowest grade of people society has to offer.

Get yourself a paid for lawyer, make sure the lawyer shows up to the jail when you are arrested, you will have a much better time dealing with the criminal justice system.

Re: Do Jails Kill People?

#66

Post by xfitm3 »

Paul-ish wrote: post #54
xfitm3 wrote: post #2

Incarceration has been a sore spot of the american justice system for a long time. Privatization should be illegal and the plea system needs reform. “Because jails are chaotic and concealed from outside view, we only become aware of them when very bad outcomes occur, such as deaths,”

Privatization isn't the issue. A lot of the abuses you see in private prisons, you see in public prisons. I recommend anyone read "Locked In: The True Causes of Mass Incarceration and How to Achieve Real Reform"[1] by John Pfaff, a professor at Fordham who focuses on these issues. It addresses a lot of misconceptions about the criminal justice system and suggests reforms. You can find a 1 hour talk by Pfaff that give…

Great points, thanks for the reference to that book. I follow Philadelphia District Attorney Larry Krasner[0] and I think he's headed in the right direction. I'm not in Philadelphia but reports of his efforts are very positive.

The reason for me knocking privatization is corruption. Kickbacks/lobbying[1] and nepotism[2]. While most of these actions are legal I don't think it is ethical.

I'll do some more reading before commenting further.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Krasner

[1] https://outline.com/MzTc9f

[2] George W. Bush & Gus Puryear https://medium.com/@pavelsokolov_56935/private-prisons-in-am...

Re: Do Jails Kill People?

#67

Post by gerbilly »

heydonovan wrote: post #46
hopler wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people awaiting trial for petty crimes need to go to jail? Rich people don't have to go to jail. Give them an ankle monitor and a court date.

You also can't bail yourself out. If taken in, you can't just hand them a credit card, and be done. You have to have someone else pay for your bail, assuming you can convince someone to do so. Forgot every phone number because it's 2019 and we all have our contacts in an app? Too bad. You're not allowed to use your iPhone either. It's a very well thought out system to keep you in jail as long as possible. Unless of c…

> Forgot every phone number because it's 2019 and we all have our contacts in an app?

This is going to be off topic, but I find this dumb.

Is it so hard to learn a 7 digit number that you need to make yourself dependent on a stupid device?

Re: Do Jails Kill People?

#68

Post by [deleted] »

devoply wrote: post #65
Waterluvian wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the thing that scares me about police, jails, and prisons, especially when visiting the U.S. Regardless of what the law is, who is right, or who is wrong, you find yourself under the control, care, and protection of some of the lowest grade of people society has to offer.

Get yourself a paid for lawyer, make sure the lawyer shows up to the jail when you are arrested, you will have a much better time dealing with the criminal justice system.

[deleted]

Re: Do Jails Kill People?

#69

Post by gerbilly »

unnouinceput wrote: post #13

Do jails kill people? No. Jail is a tool. People kill people.

Jails do harm and even kill people.

Jails and prisons inflict violence daily on the inmates, and even the guards and staff, just from the very nature of the situation they create.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_violence

Re: Do Jails Kill People?

#70

Post by gerbilly »

forevertogether wrote: post #58
ZeroFries wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck convincing anyone that listening to stories will drastically alter a person's neurology to the point of making them go from hyper-aggressive to docile. Until we improve our cognitive reforming abilities, violent criminals need to be segregated from the rest of the population. I do agree, though, that the vindictive aspect of "justice" is primative.

Genuine question: do you believe laziness exists? “We Americans stubbornly resist the possibility that what we do is profoundly shaped by policies, norms, systems, and other structural realities. We prefer to believe that people who commit crimes are morally deficient, that the have-nots in our midst are lazy (or at least insufficiently resourceful), that overweight people simply lack the willpower to stop eating, an…

Thanks for this amazing comment.
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