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UBS Is Fined $4.2B in French Tax-Evasion Case

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Re: UBS Is Fined $4.2B in French Tax-Evasion Case

#61

Post by mruts »

easytiger wrote: post #48

The predicate for this dates back a long way. I believe UBS were offered an initial sum of $1.1b to settle a few years ago and took it to trial [1] > The judges’ move followed a failed plea bargain between national financial prosecutors and UBS representatives, the first time such an out-of-court settlement was tested in France. French magistrates reportedly offered UBS to settle the case for 1.1 billion euros ($1.2…

I can see why you are being downvoted, but you are right, France isn't a very reasonable country. France has some of the most absurd, protectionist, socialist, anti-market laws the world has ever seen. Hopefully they are getting the message that their stodgy old world socialist world-view is self-defeating and unproductive.

America has some problems, but there's a reason why they have a GDP 40x larger than France with only 5x the population.

Re: UBS Is Fined $4.2B in French Tax-Evasion Case

#62

Post by ArnoVW »

mruts wrote: post #61
easytiger wrote: post #48

The predicate for this dates back a long way. I believe UBS were offered an initial sum of $1.1b to settle a few years ago and took it to trial [1] > The judges’ move followed a failed plea bargain between national financial prosecutors and UBS representatives, the first time such an out-of-court settlement was tested in France. French magistrates reportedly offered UBS to settle the case for 1.1 billion euros ($1.2…

I can see why you are being downvoted, but you are right, France isn't a very reasonable country. France has some of the most absurd, protectionist, socialist, anti-market laws the world has ever seen. Hopefully they are getting the message that their stodgy old world socialist world-view is self-defeating and unproductive. America has some problems, but there's a reason why they have a GDP 40x larger than France wit…

I won't enter into the policy discussions about wealth distribution, and you are right that the GDP per capita of the US is larger than that of Franc, but. The difference is more that of 43K vs 59K. So not 900%.

In fact, the GDP per capita is 100$ less than that of the UK, and more than that of, for example, Japan or South Korea.

Also of note may be that France, unlike the US, does not dispose of oil resources, which makes comparisons not quite as simple.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...

Re: UBS Is Fined $4.2B in French Tax-Evasion Case

#63

Post by mruts »

ArnoVW wrote: post #62
mruts wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see why you are being downvoted, but you are right, France isn't a very reasonable country. France has some of the most absurd, protectionist, socialist, anti-market laws the world has ever seen. Hopefully they are getting the message that their stodgy old world socialist world-view is self-defeating and unproductive. America has some problems, but there's a reason why they have a GDP 40x larger than France wit…

I won't enter into the policy discussions about wealth distribution, and you are right that the GDP per capita of the US is larger than that of Franc, but. The difference is more that of 43K vs 59K. So not 900%. In fact, the GDP per capita is 100$ less than that of the UK, and more than that of, for example, Japan or South Korea. Also of note may be that France, unlike the US, does not dispose of oil resources, which…

Sorry it's not 40x it's more like 10x for GDP. But there is a difference between GDP/capita and PPP. If we're talking about standard of living PPP is a good measure. But if we're just talking about "wealth" then I think GDP/capita is a better measure. Or actually, just total GDP is probably a better measure than per person.

Re: UBS Is Fined $4.2B in French Tax-Evasion Case

#64

Post by ArnoVW »

mruts wrote: post #63
ArnoVW wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't enter into the policy discussions about wealth distribution, and you are right that the GDP per capita of the US is larger than that of Franc, but. The difference is more that of 43K vs 59K. So not 900%. In fact, the GDP per capita is 100$ less than that of the UK, and more than that of, for example, Japan or South Korea. Also of note may be that France, unlike the US, does not dispose of oil resources, which…

Sorry it's not 40x it's more like 10x for GDP. But there is a difference between GDP/capita and PPP. If we're talking about standard of living PPP is a good measure. But if we're just talking about "wealth" then I think GDP/capita is a better measure. Or actually, just total GDP is probably a better measure than per person.

Even at nominal GDP it is 59k vs 39k, so 50% difference and not 100%.

And I'm not sure to understand why you prefer one mesure over the other. Pure GDP does not take into account systemic issues, such as the cost of health care or education. And the point of the discussion was the relevant merit of various economical systems.

But I did not post in order to correct some semantic point. But rather to explain the non-commented down votes.

In your original post you made an extraordinary claim, that was off by an order of magnitude. I pointed this out, and instead of checking facts, you downgraded your claim, even though a simple Google lookup would have been enough to know that even that was wrong by 100%.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(no...

In my mind this is an example of why it is difficult to have meaningful debate in our society. There is no point in debating if one or both parties are not willing to challenge their understanding of the facts.

Re: UBS Is Fined $4.2B in French Tax-Evasion Case

#65

Post by sailingparrot »

misiti3780 wrote: post #6

Another slap on the wrist. No one goes to jail because of Deferred Prosecution Agreements HSBC got fined about half that when they caught laundering money for the Mexican cartels a few years back. True story: HSBC had to design special teller windows because the standard ones were too small to fit the sacks of money that were being brought in and laundered. If you want to know why these guys don't go to jail, pull up…

This comments comes back on every single case like that no matter what the amount is, it's almost a cliché now.

Sure prison would be nice, but 4.8 billion dollar is very far from "a slap on the wrist", it it more than half of their yearly operating income worldwide.

Re: UBS Is Fined $4.2B in French Tax-Evasion Case

#66

Post by freeflight »

rb808 wrote: post #11

Big banks a such an easy target these days. Everyone in hates them and politicians love that because they can extract big fines. win-win-win. Until all the banks go under at least - US banks are mostly solvent still, European ones look like all the big ones will go under.

> Until all the banks go under

If 2008 taught us anything it is the fact that big banks don't "go under" because they are considered "too big to fail" and as such will not be allowed to fail.

The German term for this is "systemrelevant", (systemically important) which imho fits way better than "too big to fail" because it's way blunter.

Re: UBS Is Fined $4.2B in French Tax-Evasion Case

#67

Post by misiti3780 »

sailingparrot wrote: post #65
misiti3780 wrote: post #6

Another slap on the wrist. No one goes to jail because of Deferred Prosecution Agreements HSBC got fined about half that when they caught laundering money for the Mexican cartels a few years back. True story: HSBC had to design special teller windows because the standard ones were too small to fit the sacks of money that were being brought in and laundered. If you want to know why these guys don't go to jail, pull up…

This comments comes back on every single case like that no matter what the amount is, it's almost a cliché now. Sure prison would be nice, but 4.8 billion dollar is very far from "a slap on the wrist", it it more than half of their yearly operating income worldwide.

It's not cliché, it's NOT ok that these corporations can commit huge crimes and no one goes to jail. I would say the fact that you seem OK with it is not OK.

Literally no one went to jail for the crimes of 2007-2008. No one went to jail for laundering money for the cartels, no one went to jail for Libor scandal, and no one went to jail here. Yet if you walk into McDonalds and rob it of the amount in the cash register, you could go to jail for many years

Re: UBS Is Fined $4.2B in French Tax-Evasion Case

#68

Post by misiti3780 »

AtHeartEngineer wrote: post #8
misiti3780 wrote: post #6

Another slap on the wrist. No one goes to jail because of Deferred Prosecution Agreements HSBC got fined about half that when they caught laundering money for the Mexican cartels a few years back. True story: HSBC had to design special teller windows because the standard ones were too small to fit the sacks of money that were being brought in and laundered. If you want to know why these guys don't go to jail, pull up…

It was 4.2 billion not million, it probably should have been more, but that's definitely not a slap on the wrist.

i just meant it was a slap on the wrist because everyone signs a DPA and no one goes to jail

Re: UBS Is Fined $4.2B in French Tax-Evasion Case

#69

Post by mruts »

ArnoVW wrote: post #64
mruts wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry it's not 40x it's more like 10x for GDP. But there is a difference between GDP/capita and PPP. If we're talking about standard of living PPP is a good measure. But if we're just talking about "wealth" then I think GDP/capita is a better measure. Or actually, just total GDP is probably a better measure than per person.

Even at nominal GDP it is 59k vs 39k, so 50% difference and not 100%. And I'm not sure to understand why you prefer one mesure over the other. Pure GDP does not take into account systemic issues, such as the cost of health care or education. And the point of the discussion was the relevant merit of various economical systems. But I did not post in order to correct some semantic point. But rather to explain the non-co…

I’m not the one who originally posted. The 10x GDP is just based on raw GDP numbers. I don’t think they’re biased. As are the population numbers.

Re: UBS Is Fined $4.2B in French Tax-Evasion Case

#70

Post by marsokod »

mruts wrote: post #69
ArnoVW wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even at nominal GDP it is 59k vs 39k, so 50% difference and not 100%. And I'm not sure to understand why you prefer one mesure over the other. Pure GDP does not take into account systemic issues, such as the cost of health care or education. And the point of the discussion was the relevant merit of various economical systems. But I did not post in order to correct some semantic point. But rather to explain the non-co…

I’m not the one who originally posted. The 10x GDP is just based on raw GDP numbers. I don’t think they’re biased. As are the population numbers.

As of 2018, the US GDP is 7.34x the one of France, not 10x. And in 2019, the US population is 4.91x bigger that France population, leading to a GDP per capita being 1.50x higher, not 2x.

You cannot round numbers at 1 significant digit and use them for further computations, that's butchering math.

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