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Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

kirkcenter.org

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Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#61

Post by ijpoijpoihpiuoh »

philwelch wrote: post #51
viburnum wrote: post #18

Procedural arguments like this are silly. You have to judge things by what they are substantively. Feudalism and slavery were not utopian projects but they were clearly brutal. Nordic social democracy consciously set out to create a decent society for all and largely succeeded. I don't know what game the author is playing.

Nordic social democracy isn’t a utopian idea, though. It’s a progressive idea and an ambitious idea but it only really peeks out slightly from the normal range of market economies with welfare states, especially within Europe. Feudalism and slavery were awful, but don’t come close to the concentrated human misery inflicted by the utopian projects of the 20th century.

> Feudalism and slavery were awful, but don’t come close to the concentrated human misery inflicted by the utopian projects of the 20th century.

By that I assume you're largely referring to the Soviet Union and China during the cultural revolution? Yeah sure, those were bad, but it's hard for me to say whether they were particularly better or worse than slavery (at least from the perspective of a slave).

Moreover, I think that the assumption that those 20th century projects failed because they were utopian is unsourced. I think I could equally validly claim that they failed because of a fundamental failure to understand basic economics and/or a deep lack of empathy or realism on the part of national leadership.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#62

Post by AnimalMuppet »

yters wrote: post #11
petermcneeley wrote: post #6

An article brought to you by an institute that believes in: "There are certain permanent things in society: the health of the family, inherited political institutions that insure a measure of order and justice and freedom, a life of diversity and independence, a life marked by widespread possession of private property. These permanent things guarantee against arbitrary interference by the state. These are all aspects…

Interestingly, utopian projects tend to try and eliminate those things. Perhaps because they guarantee against arbitrary interference by the state.

But you see, only arbitrary interference by the state can bring about Utopia, because in order to get there, we need something powerful enough to run over everything in the status quo.

(Or so proponents seem to believe.)

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#63

Post by Retric »

philwelch wrote: post #46
kerbalspacepro wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>this world is fallen Makes the entire article essentially meaningless. How can I trust somebody with such a bizarre and unconnected worldview?

I’m not religious myself, but I think you’re letting some weird biases get in the way here. The point is that the world and the work of human beings is flawed, fallible, and imperfect. Whether or not heaven exists in heaven, it certainly doesn’t exist on earth and essentially never can.

That’s a very religious view. At most you can say humans are not what you wish them to be.

Where a crystal may have ‘defects’ that’s meaningless for a pile of sand. Further, defects can be more useful than a perfect crystalline structure.

So, to say perfection is unobtainable requires a strict definition of perfection and absolute proof it’s impossible. Both, are very high hurdles.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#64

Post by EdSharkey »

_bxg1 wrote: post #33

I don't strongly disagree on any particular point, per se, but the fact that the author's thoughts are rooted in a religious worldview felt like it was snuck in there at the end: "Moreover, this world is fallen, so it is by nature flawed...The utopian visions that animate real places...seek to remake humanity and society in someone’s image—and that is not the image of the Creator." For further context, the website it…

None of the following statements are rational or evidence-based, but I consider them to be true:

* Life is not perfect as long as there's death.

* Humans cannot live in perfect harmony with one another because of our pesky evil streak.

* Man-made laws cannot eliminate human evil.

When philosophising at such depths, it's instinctive to get religious. It's also a handy abstraction.

Also, transcending reality through worship helps with the inevitable depression that goes along with deep thoughts about this broken existence.

All that said, it's no surprise to me that such irrational thinking bugs a lot of people. I'm only mildly bugged by it anymore since I found Jesus.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#65

Post by AnimalMuppet »

aschampion wrote: post #8
chongli wrote: post #3

I took a philosophy course on Utopian and Dystopian literature last year. The takeaway I had from the course is even more stark than this headline: Utopia and Dystopia are two names for the same concept. In all of the utopias we studied -- from Plato's Republic through Thomas More's Utopia and including Marx's Communist Manifesto -- the question that kept ringing in my ears was "utopia for whom?" Every utopia makes a…

> A utopia which purports to make everyone happy (shouldn't they all?) is one that assumes all people are the same or it endeavours to make them so. So the contrapositive is that because people differ all societies require some people to suffer? That's a great way to justify all sorts of exploitation. > In all of the utopias ... including Marx's Communist Manifesto Ah, the Chicago school framing. What's primarily a p…

Because people differ, attempts to make a society where one kind of people will be perfectly happy make other kinds of people very unhappy. The contrapositive is that making a society where nobody is very unhappy means making a society where nobody is perfectly happy.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#66

Post by zdragnar »

perfmode wrote: post #59
_bxg1 wrote: post #33

I don't strongly disagree on any particular point, per se, but the fact that the author's thoughts are rooted in a religious worldview felt like it was snuck in there at the end: "Moreover, this world is fallen, so it is by nature flawed...The utopian visions that animate real places...seek to remake humanity and society in someone’s image—and that is not the image of the Creator." For further context, the website it…

Nothing straight can be built from crooked timber. -Kant

Even a broken clock is right twice a day?

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#67

Post by zepto »

Spooky23 wrote: post #42
GauntletWizard wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a discussion of the SR-71 a few months ago that I found excellent. One of the comments took the opposition approach - The SR-71 was an engineering failure, because it leaked fuel, it required tight tolerances and most of the parts were thrown out because of it, etc [1]. I think it's a correct view. I think they're absolutely right about the SR-71. I posted a comment arguing they're wrong, because I think my…

What does correct mean? Engineering is about solving problems. Ultimately it was the right solution for a very specific scope and time. The knowledge gained helped avoid nuclear conflict — an extreme benefit worth a lot of cost. Once satellites matured, it’s utility was reduced. Once drones were a thing, it’s utility went to zero. Top-secret state of the art stuff in 1990 is on the deck of a mueseum today.

Are drones being used to spy on military facilities?

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#68

Post by coldtea »

kerbalspacepro wrote: post #41
_bxg1 wrote: post #33

I don't strongly disagree on any particular point, per se, but the fact that the author's thoughts are rooted in a religious worldview felt like it was snuck in there at the end: "Moreover, this world is fallen, so it is by nature flawed...The utopian visions that animate real places...seek to remake humanity and society in someone’s image—and that is not the image of the Creator." For further context, the website it…

>this world is fallen Makes the entire article essentially meaningless. How can I trust somebody with such a bizarre and unconnected worldview?

Not really bizarre or really unconnected.

In fact, for most of history, and with very great many minds throughout history agreeing to that, it would be your objection that would be considered bizarre.

You don't have to believe in a specific creator or any specific religious mythology to agree with such a statement as "this world is fallen". Even as atheist like e.g. Emil Cioran could agree with such a statement. But even if someone actually believes e.g. in the Christian god, it's almost irrelevant as to the validity of their belief that "this world is fallen".

It's just a way of seeing the world -- as permanently imperfect and with fatal flaws in its construction. In fact most of our history and even personal lives agrees with this observation as well: we are ignorant of most things, we age, we get ill, we suffer, we kill each other, we are petty, and so on. And in the end, we just die, along with everybody we knew and loved. All that in an indifferent universe, that could e.g. wipe thousands of us out tomorrow with an earthquake, a tsunami, and so on. Or something of our own making, like a nuclear war.

These things can be summed up in "this world is fallen", and there's nothing bizarre or unconnected about it.

One might disagree and see progress etc, and even be optimistic that everything will prevail, or even see no issue with death and illness and the ills of old age, and so on. But in the main there's nothing much bizarre in saying that "this world is fallen" -- e.g. that things are incomplete, broken, and more often than not disappointing.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#69

Post by blotter_paper »

pjc50 wrote: post #56
GauntletWizard wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're the one arguing definitions. This author is trying to make an actual argument, and you've introduced a non-standard vocabulary, and are judging the argument _with your vocabulary instead of the definitions the author made quite clear_. How do you pronounce "Utopia"? How does it differ from "Eutopia"? Your definitions are fine, internally consistent, and quite clear for serious in-depth discussion... But they a…

What the article seems to miss out is any mention of Plato's invention of the term, and its original meaning of "no place". From the very beginning unachievability was associated with the concept.

Plato's republic has been called a utopia only in retrospect, the term was coined by Thomas Moore.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#70

Post by coldtea »

Retric wrote: post #63
philwelch wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not religious myself, but I think you’re letting some weird biases get in the way here. The point is that the world and the work of human beings is flawed, fallible, and imperfect. Whether or not heaven exists in heaven, it certainly doesn’t exist on earth and essentially never can.

That’s a very religious view. At most you can say humans are not what you wish them to be. Where a crystal may have ‘defects’ that’s meaningless for a pile of sand. Further, defects can be more useful than a perfect crystalline structure. So, to say perfection is unobtainable requires a strict definition of perfection and absolute proof it’s impossible. Both, are very high hurdles.

>That’s a very religious view. Humans are not necessarily flawed

Historically they have been. At least they're not up to our own standards.

We can kill, lie, cheat, brutalize, exploit, each other, and we do so daily in the billions.

We might not be total bastards, but we're no perfectly fine people either.

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