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Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

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Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#61

Post by Glawen »

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #48
albeec13 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the exception of safety features (think blind spot monitoring, backup cameras, lane keep assist, parking sensors) and mobile connectivity features like bluetooth, frankly I'm getting tired of all the crap they're throwing into vehicles these days for many of the reasons you mention. It seems every manufacturer or parent brand has their own infotainment system, NAV, etc. and you pay the price for it when you buy…

>Is anyone making reasonably well-appointed vehicles without throwing everything and the kitchen sink in there? No. Honda, Toyota, Fiat, GM, everyone seems to have the same problem. For what it's worth, FiatChrysler and GM have at least had the sense to set higher requirements for vendor/suppliers than Toyota. Specicially, after Toyota's "unintended acceleration" issues (mostly floor mats, some APPS/Pedal issues) it…

I've read the audit and basically it was done by a guy with no clue about the automotive world. He compared the code with the one made at nas. In the end they indeed did not find the root cause, but they had to say something as they are the "experts". So they pointed at "bad practices" like global variables.

What if i tell you that a pretty big chunk of the cars on the road are running software which are using global variable as means to exchange data between modules ? Well, that's how it is done and it isn't less safe. The last SW i worked with had 20000 global variables and 60000 parameters that the calibration guys could fiddle with.

Serious suppliers are applying safety standard and methodology and are not rushing the FMEA. Countless times my customer cursed at the safety guys for postponing the SW because they were not finished with testing, but this very same customer never had to stand in court for a safety issue with the SW, and so are many other carmaker.

When the Toyota pedal issue came out, we just could not believe that Toyota did not have the gas pedal override by brake safety in their SW.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#62

Post by dawnerd »

athenot wrote: post #23
dickeytk wrote: post #7

The people that buy luxury cars don't care. It'll be under warranty during this time and the dealer will offer a free loaner car while it is being repaired. Most of these cars are leased and the ones that aren't will likely be sold around the 3 year mark. There isn't much incentive for the manufacturers to make them reliable unlike with mass market cars.

This is true. But there is an important corollary: never buy a used luxury car that's in it's third phase of life (>120k mikes). Both the amount and the cost of repairs are significantly higher. But it's a sucker's deal where people can get a nice car for a while, but which will end up costing them way more than, say, a moderately used Toyota.

A good channel does exactly that for entertainment https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdEczn3MVkx_4PnMZ10MVFA

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#63

Post by bdcravens »

petschge wrote: post #19
bdcravens wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ditto for Infiniti (Nissan), Acura (Honda), and Audi (VW). I realize none of those brands are useful for making unrelated demographic-based comments, however.

For the Volkswagen group, I would list Bentley, Lamborghini or Bugatti as their luxury offerings. Audi is more middle class and sold in large numbers, at least in Europe.

In the US Audi is positioned alongside Lexus, BMW, etc. Those luxury brands you listed aren't the level the article was addressing.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#64

Post by Glawen »

coupdejarnac wrote: post #31
SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #9

Automotive EE here. In the last 5-8 years there has been a DRAMATIC change in the way vehicles are tested and released. Everyone has become much more focused on electronic features - while at the same time almost everyone is completely outsourcing electronics design and firmware. Cars hit the lots with 10 new flashes waiting. When I started, it was a BIG DEAL if you had a lot held up somewhere in Detroit because of a…

Has there been a trend to bring controls back in house? I used to work in another mature industry, HVAC. It also went through a period of outsourcing all electronics/software, and then they realized that all the IP/secret sauce going forward will be in the controls and related software. My former employer had plenty of unpleasant experiences outsourcing firmware, which contributed to bringing it all back in house.

Yes, Autosar enables the carmaker to develop code in house for their cars, but it still needs the suppliers for the HW and the controls of specialised parts like injectors, rpm or lambda sensors.

The trend is for the carmaker to develop vehicle functions like start stop or cruise control, and give the object code to the supplier for integration.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#65

Post by rjplatte »

thorwasdfasdf wrote: post #27
headmelted wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that a Lexus is a fancy Toyota, this doesn't surprise. I had it explained to me once by a MOT tester (a safety and emissions test in the UK that cars more than four years old must undergo annually) while my old Corolla was on the ramp that Toyota's process basically involves hardening parts from the last model for the most popular defects, with as little re-design work of the internal components between generat…

Toyotas are extremely reliably, especially in the long term. In the long term, toyotas beat anything out there even hondas.

My 315k mile 2005 Prius agrees. I got it, replaced the traction battery, got new struts, and bam, new car. I've had it for 60k miles, and I've spent more on oil changes than any repairs besides the initial outlay.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#66

Post by ip26 »

ivalm wrote: post #43
thorwasdfasdf wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toyotas are extremely reliably, especially in the long term. In the long term, toyotas beat anything out there even hondas.

If you look at GP, hondas are not particularly reliable by either metric discussed. Even american Chevies rank higher.

They always seemed well made but weirdly designed.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#67

Post by rjplatte »

amyjess wrote: post #54
kenhwang wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conflating cost of ownership with frequency of issues (reliability). The Germans don't break often, but when they do, it'll cost a bunch. American cars break continuously, but it's cheap and easy to fix.

Also, Americans and Germans have different definitions of "reliable". Americans define "reliable" as "runs forever on zero maintenance". Germans define "reliable" as "runs forever as long as you stick to strict maintenance schedules".

I like the antifragile definition more. Go ahead and try to kill a 2008 Crown Vic. :)

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#68

Post by magduf »

jstarfish wrote: post #57
albeec13 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the exception of safety features (think blind spot monitoring, backup cameras, lane keep assist, parking sensors) and mobile connectivity features like bluetooth, frankly I'm getting tired of all the crap they're throwing into vehicles these days for many of the reasons you mention. It seems every manufacturer or parent brand has their own infotainment system, NAV, etc. and you pay the price for it when you buy…

Look for trims of vehicles designed for fleet use. Those remain pretty spartan.

He wants heated and cooled seats. You're not going to find that in any fleet vehicle.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#70

Post by alvern »

rjplatte wrote: post #65
thorwasdfasdf wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toyotas are extremely reliably, especially in the long term. In the long term, toyotas beat anything out there even hondas.

My 315k mile 2005 Prius agrees. I got it, replaced the traction battery, got new struts, and bam, new car. I've had it for 60k miles, and I've spent more on oil changes than any repairs besides the initial outlay.

My 2006 Prius is at 388k. I've promised myself I wouldn't get another car until this one quits. But, it just won't die. I've also priced out getting an EV for my 42 mile commute but the ROI is not there compared to a used-paid for high mileage Prius.
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