Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

qz.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 110 posts

Re: Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

#61

Post by wolfgang42 »

stronglikedan wrote: post #36
criddell wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They aren’t doing anything illegal Isn't there an active lawsuit claiming their use of race in the admissions process crosses the line?

I personally don't know if such a lawsuit exists. However, if it hasn't been settled in favor of the plaintiff, and no other such lawsuits have been settled in favor of the plaintiff, then they aren't doing anything illegal.

> if it hasn't been settled in favor of the plaintiff...then they aren't doing anything illegal.

Wouldn't that mean that they haven't yet been determined to be doing anything illegal? If you do things against the law they're still illegal even if you haven't been caught.

Re: Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

#62

Post by grumdan »

lettergram wrote: post #6

Harvard doesn’t have an admissions problem. It’s a highly successful institution, that has lasted for hundreds of years and is not public. Meaning - they clearly are doing something correct and are not beholden to what we feel is “fair”. They aren’t doing anything illegal, so there is no problem. Perhaps it doesn’t jive with some sensibilities, but it’s not their responsibility to cater to anyone’s sensibilities. The…

> Perhaps it doesn’t jive with some sensibilities, but it’s not their responsibility to cater to anyone’s sensibilities.

Whether or not someone or some organization is successful, for some definition of success, is a very different question of whether they are behaving morally. And yes, the public certainly can and should point out immoral actions by such institutions. There are countless examples of companies and governments that were successful with some policy that was widely regarded as immoral.

Re: Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

#63

Post by subjectHarold »

crazygringo wrote: post #44

So here's the thing: a student body is more than the sum of its parts, which a lottery ignores. To use just one example: a lottery could easily wind up admitting 40 violin players and zero bassoon players, or 8 percussionists but not a single oboe player. In which case a viable university orchestra becomes impossible, and every potential orchestra player suffers. (These are not exaggerated either -- for an incoming c…

The idea of lotteries is not new. This problem is addressed in most solutions by weighting for factors.

The issue with the current system is that it produces the lack of diversity that you are describing because it optimises for things that only rich people have access to. If you go to a shit school, something that no child really has control over, you won't have extracurriculars, you might not have sports, there are no violins...this upper middle-class idea of "diversity" is weak and decadent.

Re: Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

#64

Post by trowawee »

babyslothzoo wrote: post #55

Would it be a problem to remove all identity categories (name/legacy/gender/ethnicity/origin/etc) of applicants and simply admit the most qualified students?

"simply admit the most qualified students" is the "assume a spherical cow" of the college admissions discussion.

Re: Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

#65

Post by akhilcacharya »

I've said this before and I've said it again - I'm genuinely not sure about why we invest so much mental anguish about discussing $ELITE_SCHOOL's admissions process at all. If we're talking about opportunity, shouldn't we instead aim to provide opportunity for the 99.9% of people that either can't (me), or didn't go to the same handful of elite universities?

Re: Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

#66

Post by jhwang5 »

rconti wrote: post #32

For those who aren't following closely: Harvard, like many Universities with applications from far more candidates than they can accept, filter applications based on perceived desirability. For example, a student with the same academic background is more likely to get admitted if they come from Wyoming or Maine than New York or California; in the name of having a more diverse student body with more diverse interests…

I think there was some studies that showed the share of spots that would have went to Asian Americans effectively transferred to white women. In that sense, not sure if Asian Americans were the only "over-represented" demographic segment.

Re: Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

#67

Post by agent008t »

subjectHarold wrote: post #53
agent008t wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know about Harvard, but I was involved with interviewing candidates for CS admissions at Oxford. Everyone involved that I worked with most definitely wanted to admit the best, most capable students and could not care less about legacy students or wealth. The institutions in "the West" are really not as bad as some of us would like to think. Furthermore, undermining the public faith in these institutions can ser…

Is that the same university that admits more from eight private schools than from 3/4 of the state school system? Yep, sounds like a fair system. Cool story bro.

I doubt this is because of a biased admissions process. It could be a variety of factors:

1. Differences in encouragement from parents, teachers etc. Differences in how much emphasis is put on education.

2. Related to #1 - state school kids may think they are not good enough and not apply.

3. Actual quality of education may be significantly better at those schools, especially in certain subjects.

4. Genetic potential - some traits that allow kids to do well academically may well be genetic, so it could be that the parents would also have those traits, be better off economically because of it, and send their kids to good schools because of the combination of valuing education and being able to afford it.

Re: Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

#68

Post by jhwang5 »

agent008t wrote: post #10

Who says that the threshold, as measured by e.g. SAT scores, is a good threshold for a good measure?

There is a way to settle the fairness of process: re-run admissions process where all data points that indicate demographics are scrubbed (name, ethnic organization memberships, etc). See if the admission rates change.

Re: Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

#69

Post by abnry »

briandear wrote: post #20
abnry wrote: post #12

The problem of college admissions seems similar to the problem of selling tickets to a hot event. The free market solution to selling tickets to, say, a Red Sox game is to charge as much as you possible can until people stop buying tickets. But you get a problem. You make the less wealthy fans very unhappy because they have no choice in being able to attend. This has long term consequences. So the Red Sox, for instan…

So basically supply and demand?

The problem is that the usual way of solving the supply and demand problem in the free market has consequences that many people dislike.It doesn't seem fair for only rich people to attend baseball games. It doesn't seem fair for only a select few of those qualified get to go to Harvard.

Re: Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

#70

Post by telotortium »

crazygringo wrote: post #44

So here's the thing: a student body is more than the sum of its parts, which a lottery ignores. To use just one example: a lottery could easily wind up admitting 40 violin players and zero bassoon players, or 8 percussionists but not a single oboe player. In which case a viable university orchestra becomes impossible, and every potential orchestra player suffers. (These are not exaggerated either -- for an incoming c…

A lottery is still easily able to be used here - Harvard could publish the slots and the number of people to admit to each of them, and then perform a lottery based on that.
Post reply on HN