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Dating apps face questions over age checks after report exposes child abuse

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Re: Dating apps face questions over age checks after report exposes child abuse

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did you read the article? That's an inappropriate response. Don't respond that way in the future. > What lawmakers want is ID required. Yes, like for alcohol. > This is an extremely burdensome requirement. To have every new user of any online platform have to verify photo ID against a webcam is... very onerous. New regulations are regularly called "extremely burdensome". I would say that alcohol regulations are ext…

Actually, asking if you read the article was me being kind in my assumptions. Alcohol is responsible 88,000 deaths per year. You are literally comparing something with 0-10 deaths per year (if that) to almost 100,000 deaths per year. That type of grotesquely disproportionate comparison is part of 'outrage' culture. It's something I dislike and have no trouble calling people out on. Not a single cost/benefit analysis.…

> Actually, asking if you read the article was me being kind in my assumptions.

Your assumption here appears to be that anyone who disagrees with you must be misinformed.

> You are literally comparing something with 0-10 deaths per year (if that) to almost 100,000 deaths per year. That type of grotesquely disproportionate comparison is part of 'outrage' culture. It's something I dislike and have no trouble calling people out on.

Please respond to content, not to your own emotional responses (likes and dislikes). Being offended is not an argument for or against anything.

Harm comes in different forms, and we are going compare harm prevention strategies even though some strategies try to prevent liver disease and death (age verification for alcohol) and others try to harm prevention strategies for child sexual abuse (age verification for dating apps). It is appropriate and normal to compare different things.

> Not a single cost/benefit analysis. No consideration of the cost, just a wave of the hand (they will bear it). No discussion even of what type of age verification should be or any pros and cons.

Yes, I would also like to see a cost/benefit analysis. On this, we agree.

> If you don't seem to consider the consequences of laws, or even the fact that the logic you use is based on grotesquely unbalanced comparisons, I see little possibility for dialectics.

You have come up with a great many explanations for how I am somehow an inferior person, but this is inappropriate behavior and you should in the future respond to content unless someone is acting inappropriately.

Re: Dating apps face questions over age checks after report exposes child abuse

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think an establishment has a legal duty to report child grooming that occurs on their premises? I used the word 'dates' (plural) - a re-occurring thing, not a one off event.

I'll bite, how is a restaurant supposed to figure out which groups of people are "child groomers" as opposed to something more pedestrian and normal like "parents?"

You've never once seen something and felt something was a bit off?

You're never able to read a person?

You don't think people working in a restaurant can't put 2 & 2 together and come up with 4 more times than not?

So, you see a person come in with different children repeatedly and act above & beyond affectionate to them. Inappropriate caressing/touching?

You don't think that's gonna set off alarm bells in the staffs' heads?

Re: Dating apps face questions over age checks after report exposes child abuse

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, asking if you read the article was me being kind in my assumptions. Alcohol is responsible 88,000 deaths per year. You are literally comparing something with 0-10 deaths per year (if that) to almost 100,000 deaths per year. That type of grotesquely disproportionate comparison is part of 'outrage' culture. It's something I dislike and have no trouble calling people out on. Not a single cost/benefit analysis.…

> Actually, asking if you read the article was me being kind in my assumptions. Your assumption here appears to be that anyone who disagrees with you must be misinformed. > You are literally comparing something with 0-10 deaths per year (if that) to almost 100,000 deaths per year. That type of grotesquely disproportionate comparison is part of 'outrage' culture. It's something I dislike and have no trouble calling pe…

Nope, I don't think anyone who disagrees with me didn't read the article.

The thing is, logical people when they read about 3 deaths per year don't propose applying the same social burden as to avoid 100,000.

You ask questions, but don't answer. How about addressing the fact that a comparison of something that costs 88,000 lives to 3/year is grossly out of line? How about you write out exactly what you propose instead of innuendos? Maybe include pros and cons without any hand waving? You know, dealing with those details you seem to support.

Using reason means understanding 3 I didn't say you were inferior. I said you were emotive and didn't use reason: if you can't handle such a call out, then you might not have a place in a serious discussion. We've all been there; having taken unreasonable stances. Whether you choose to stay there is your choice.

How about addressing privacy concerns for LGBT?

How about you answering questions on margin of error improvement based on the proposed changes? After all, you are the one proposing new things; the burden to prove your new solutions good is on you. Not that you have shown any desire of understanding this burden of proof thing. Asking for changes WHILE requesting others prove your numbers... it shows such a lack of understanding of how dialectics work. Reverse burden of proof isn't opinion, again, that is fact; you are wanting a change that you are asking others to prove/disprove.

Your opinion on inappropriate behavior is, as you used to put my perspective down, just that, your opinion. Last, you telling me what to do is... laughably authoritarian.

Re: Dating apps face questions over age checks after report exposes child abuse

#64

One question - where the heck are these kids' parents? I think most people on dating apps are under the impression that other users are of legal age. If your child is searching for adult partners, complete strangers, over the Internet, you as a parent have a lot to answer for. That being said, none of that justifies what happened to the minors mentioned in the article. Ultimately, there are a lot of bad people out th…

I'll tell you where this parent is. He is trying to find tools to make phone use safe for his kids and finding nothing except excuses and denial from telecoms, phone manufacturers, and app developers. Smartphones are a playground filled with jagged edges and predators behind an entrance of flashing lights and music. People made it, profit from it, and those same people should be held liable for their actions.

Actually, this parent is demanding 100% certainty in an uncertain world. He is also shifting burden from himself to others.

This parent isn't understanding that there are cost benefits and diminishing returns. We already filter kids from such platforms and it works to 99.999%, so exactly where should it be? And at what cost?

This parent is also filled with innuendo, seemingly unable to make points that stand on their own with actual dialectics.

Re: Dating apps face questions over age checks after report exposes child abuse

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this different from, for example, requiring age verification to purchase alcohol? Or are you also opposed to that? I think we understand that parents are not in complete control over their children, and in the interest of harm reduction, we don't give parents the entire burden of keeping their children safe but spread parts of it out among the community. This doesn't seem like a particularly burdensome request…

Require a $5 CC payment and a photo ID where the picture matches their profile ID in order to create the account... The $5 would cover the cost of HUMAN verification. Not every aspect of every interaction online needs to automate out human interaction. The other aspect is to actively encourage REPORT for minors on the platform. Another possibility is to allow 16+yo and wall them off from those over ~21 with a big fat…

People like you have existed for a while. They want to tie internet use to verified ID offline.

And that is great; there are clearly good things that will come.

But there are also bad things will come with that.

Ignoring that second part makes your post seem shallow and not very well thought out.

Re: Dating apps face questions over age checks after report exposes child abuse

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Require a $5 CC payment and a photo ID where the picture matches their profile ID in order to create the account... The $5 would cover the cost of HUMAN verification. Not every aspect of every interaction online needs to automate out human interaction. The other aspect is to actively encourage REPORT for minors on the platform. Another possibility is to allow 16+yo and wall them off from those over ~21 with a big fat…

People like you have existed for a while. They want to tie internet use to verified ID offline. And that is great; there are clearly good things that will come. But there are also bad things will come with that. Ignoring that second part makes your post seem shallow and not very well thought out.

I'm not saying all internet activity should be tied to a real identification... but, just perhaps, dating sites/apps should be.

Re: Dating apps face questions over age checks after report exposes child abuse

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People like you have existed for a while. They want to tie internet use to verified ID offline. And that is great; there are clearly good things that will come. But there are also bad things will come with that. Ignoring that second part makes your post seem shallow and not very well thought out.

I'm not saying all internet activity should be tied to a real identification... but, just perhaps, dating sites/apps should be .

Well the article mentions instagram. Facebook is a dating site for many. Many people use all kinds of platforms to hook up. Especially when you look internationally.

Exactly what do you define as 'dating site'? Craigslist has a dating section.

Please, you have suggestions, I'll be glad to reconsider my position in favor of reasonable suggestions that are based on a well thought out position.

Also, please let me know about how we are going to deal with leaks.

Like, when X person's sexuality is leaked and he/she is beaten to death for it or maybe for an infidelity (and you know those things get hacked/leaked), who do we apply for remuneration to? How many people do you think that will be? And why do those people not count vs the 15 kids in 5 years?

I'm truly open to solutions. I don't think they could possibly justify the tiny issue (statistically) that would probably not be fully mitigated by the solution anyway, but... I'm open. The burden is on you, who wishes to make changes, to prove that the change that you wish is preferable than the situation we have.

Re: Dating apps face questions over age checks after report exposes child abuse

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You seem to believe that the burden to verify age is too onerous for online dating apps. I think that we should require age verification for dating services across the board, and it should be up to the online apps to compete with offline dating services on equal footing. It is a burden for the apps themselves but it's not something they can't overcome. The real issue is end-users wanting some degree of privacy and…

You are speaking to the outrage crowd. Really hard to reason with them. They reverse the burden of proof. If they find an issue, they point it out and imply that there is a solution that people don't want to take. They don't consider any nuances: magnitude, scale, proportions, cost/benefit, margins of error, the concept of diminishing returns, game theory, etc. Hell, half the time they will comment without even readi…

Yea, very frustrating.

Re: Dating apps face questions over age checks after report exposes child abuse

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll bite, how is a restaurant supposed to figure out which groups of people are "child groomers" as opposed to something more pedestrian and normal like "parents?"

You've never once seen something and felt something was a bit off? You're never able to read a person? You don't think people working in a restaurant can't put 2 & 2 together and come up with 4 more times than not? So, you see a person come in with different children repeatedly and act above & beyond affectionate to them. Inappropriate caressing/touching? You don't think that's gonna set off alarm bells in the staffs…

So, we're gonna rely on the psychic powers of witch hunting cretins who work in food service; what could possibly go wrong?

I don't know what planet you live on where we need to deputize the country's wait staff to catch child molestors who meet their victims on match dot com and bring them to restaurants, but I don't want to live on that planet.

Re: Dating apps face questions over age checks after report exposes child abuse

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying all internet activity should be tied to a real identification... but, just perhaps, dating sites/apps should be .

Well the article mentions instagram. Facebook is a dating site for many. Many people use all kinds of platforms to hook up. Especially when you look internationally. Exactly what do you define as 'dating site'? Craigslist has a dating section. Please, you have suggestions, I'll be glad to reconsider my position in favor of reasonable suggestions that are based on a well thought out position. Also, please let me know…

The real point I was trying to make, is often people say that verifying people is unreasonable because of costs... My counter to that is there's nothing stopping an organization for absorbing or distributing those costs at the point of entry. I'm not advocating some disclosure zone or requiring all internet activity to be doxable by anyone else online.

There are applications expressly for dating (tinder, bumble, pof, etc...), some also mentioned in the article. It's not an unreasonable expectation for such an app to be connected to an actual, verifiable person.

Aside: It also wouldn't be unreasonable to simply allow minors on a given platform, and give a visible indicator of minor (or under 21 for that matter) status. Other walls may also be appropriate.

As for leaks, abuse or other reactions to peoples behavior, there are already laws and courts for that. It's impractical to solve for every problem. All solutions have gaps, that's no reason not to try. It's up to individuals to reasonably protect their own identity when communicating semi-anonymously. And frankly, I'm not a fan of a lot of the association of real names to online accounts in a number of social platforms in general. My main counterpoint was that cost is NOT a real counter-argument to having a more thorough onboarding as it could be part of signing up for such platforms.

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