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McKinsey Advised Purdue Pharma How to ‘Turbocharge’ Opioid Sales, Lawsuit Says

nytimes.com

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Re: McKinsey Advised Purdue Pharma How to ‘Turbocharge’ Opioid Sales, Lawsuit Says

#61

Post by goldenkey »

dannylandau wrote: post #59
mimixco wrote: post #56

The legal papers linked at the start of this article make for a great read. The Sacklers are monsters who got people hooked on ever increasing doses they couldn't quit. It's not just about diverting and using the drug recreationally; most of the addicts started out with legit pain needs. Thousands of them are now dead.

It is easy to scapegoat the founders, but I know quite a few people, including myself, where OxyContin was the only pain reliever that really worked. In my case, took it after surgery. Not sure that Purdue Pharma is any worst or better than other Big Pharma.

Same here. All these god-damned opiate laws made it so hard to get renewals of medication for my chronic pain. And insurance stopped covering Tapentadol which was by far the most effective and safest drug. In 2011 I was pummeled and then tortured in LA by police/jail officials, which caused cervical spine damage.

So I switched to kratom. Its a shame but kratom is much healthier anyhow. It has vitamins and minerals and fiber, cant be overdosed on, doesnt cause massive constipation, isnt as physically addictive, its an all around better drug for daily pain management.

Re: McKinsey Advised Purdue Pharma How to ‘Turbocharge’ Opioid Sales, Lawsuit Says

#62

Post by YjSe2GMQ »

goldenkey wrote: post #61
dannylandau wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is easy to scapegoat the founders, but I know quite a few people, including myself, where OxyContin was the only pain reliever that really worked. In my case, took it after surgery. Not sure that Purdue Pharma is any worst or better than other Big Pharma.

Same here. All these god-damned opiate laws made it so hard to get renewals of medication for my chronic pain. And insurance stopped covering Tapentadol which was by far the most effective and safest drug. In 2011 I was pummeled and then tortured in LA by police/jail officials, which caused cervical spine damage. So I switched to kratom. Its a shame but kratom is much healthier anyhow. It has vitamins and minerals an…

It's a well known fact for anyone practicing palliative medicine that often you have to shuffle around opioids to see which one works. And there is really nothing special about oxycodone, it's just another opioid that's been known for over 100 years.

It's great that it worked for you guys (for real, it's fantastic), but the whole concept of systematically pushing a particular opioid is disturbing.

Re: McKinsey Advised Purdue Pharma How to ‘Turbocharge’ Opioid Sales, Lawsuit Says

#63

Post by arkades »

yeahitslikethat wrote: post #57
arkades wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He probably got burned at some point and got scared. We get reviewed a lot more these days. "You prescribed a 5x higher dose than he needed!" "But I told him to cut it in five." "That's not what you wrote in your documentation?" "Well, if I wrote that in the documentation, it would have been documenting my own insurance fraud. I had to write that it was for (condition that requires 25 mg)." "Did he have (condition th…

Are doctors doing anything to end the requirement that patients get prescriptions for drugs? What are you doing to change the system? The AMA lobbies congress to keep it broken in the favor of doctors and detriment of patients. Doctors control our right to live. It's contrary to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, because we must get your permission to live.

> Are doctors doing anything to end the requirement that patients get prescriptions for drugs?

(A) Physicians are not some monolithic block. Whatever ones stance on the AMA, they are a single lobbying group. They are not the collective noun for “doctor.”

(B) I, personally, do plenty. I left health insurance for clinical work because I saw how few healthcare leaders understood how to forge more effective care models in the current landscape, and I wanted to do better for people.

(C) I am unaware of any movement among physicians to give people unfettered access to prescription medications (not to say that I’m omniscient - such a movement may exist outside my knowledge.) I would not support such a movement if it existed; it would do massive harm to the public.

Re: McKinsey Advised Purdue Pharma How to ‘Turbocharge’ Opioid Sales, Lawsuit Says

#64

Post by arkades »

bitL wrote: post #58
arkades wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He probably got burned at some point and got scared. We get reviewed a lot more these days. "You prescribed a 5x higher dose than he needed!" "But I told him to cut it in five." "That's not what you wrote in your documentation?" "Well, if I wrote that in the documentation, it would have been documenting my own insurance fraud. I had to write that it was for (condition that requires 25 mg)." "Did he have (condition th…

The explanation I've received was that they don't get any money from the higher dosage from insurance company and as I use it for "cosmetic" reason, I won't get the cheaper one.

Doctors don’t get money from insurers for drugs one way or the other, barring infusions (think: chemo.) An explanation that involves the doc not getting more money from the insurance company sounds like it may have lost something in translation.

Re: McKinsey Advised Purdue Pharma How to ‘Turbocharge’ Opioid Sales, Lawsuit Says

#65

Post by JumpCrisscross »

arkades wrote: post #9
amsilprotag wrote: post #8

I guess McKinsey erred in accepting the work from Purdue, but it seems like the consulting provided was obvious and likely overpriced. More at fault, in my estimation, is the AMA and other physician standards bodies. Propublica released a search tool [0] last year based on Open Payments Data [1] and the numbers are ridiculous. My small state shows 10s of physicians receiving over $100k over the recorded 2013-2016 per…

Know that Gell-Mann amnesia effect that comes up all over Hn? As a physician, former health insurance exec, and guy with a graduate degree in health policy: propublica deserves deep skepticism.

> propublica deserves deep skepticism

Seconded. One of their journalists, Jesse Eisinger, quoted a paper to back a particular claim. I found the paper and discovered it said the opposite. Figuring a skimming mistake, I e-mailed Mr. Eisinger. The response was a brief dismissal, nothing more.

Re: McKinsey Advised Purdue Pharma How to ‘Turbocharge’ Opioid Sales, Lawsuit Says

#66

Post by yeahitslikethat »

arkades wrote: post #63
yeahitslikethat wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are doctors doing anything to end the requirement that patients get prescriptions for drugs? What are you doing to change the system? The AMA lobbies congress to keep it broken in the favor of doctors and detriment of patients. Doctors control our right to live. It's contrary to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, because we must get your permission to live.

> Are doctors doing anything to end the requirement that patients get prescriptions for drugs? (A) Physicians are not some monolithic block. Whatever ones stance on the AMA, they are a single lobbying group. They are not the collective noun for “doctor.” (B) I, personally, do plenty. I left health insurance for clinical work because I saw how few healthcare leaders understood how to forge more effective care models i…

What evidence supports your claim it would do massive harm to the public?

My evidence for the contrary is any of the countries in the world where prescriptions aren't required.

Re: McKinsey Advised Purdue Pharma How to ‘Turbocharge’ Opioid Sales, Lawsuit Says

#67

Post by heyjudy »

I've met the acquaintance of some McKinseans: their prime modus operandi most coincides with do-whatever-you-but-don't-get-caught anr money is personal value meter. Of the closest ecno-political centroids, I'd say they're on the spectrum of "free-market" libertarians, neocons and neoliberals who believe "protect the establishment," "markets solve everything" and "externalities don't matter."

Re: McKinsey Advised Purdue Pharma How to ‘Turbocharge’ Opioid Sales, Lawsuit Says

#68

Post by heyjudy »

eeeeeeeeeeeee wrote: post #60
dawhizkid wrote: post #4

Is it really just McKinsey, or are these articles focused on McKinsey because they are the most schadenfreude-inducing among big management consulting firms (akin to the media outrage directed at Facebook)? e.g. are BCG, Bain, the consulting arms of the Big 4 any more ethical in what they will or won't do for a paying client? The story would be more interesting if everyone outside of McKinsey refused to do consulting…

Worth reading what McKinsey did in South Africa: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/26/world/africa/mckinsey-sou... Considering they took that deal even over the objection of some of their partners seems to me that not everyone, even the top firms, are as craven.

I knew of one ex- Morgan Stanley quant, who I purposely don't talk to anymore, because his department's product was economically strip-mining West African agriculture for a certain crop, while claiming to be helping. They helped themselves and cheated farmers and brokers with all sorts of BS.

Re: McKinsey Advised Purdue Pharma How to ‘Turbocharge’ Opioid Sales, Lawsuit Says

#69

Post by i_am_nomad »

code4tee wrote: post #35

There seems to be a continuing chain of these damning stories about McKinsey and its quesrionable ethics. Seems like the New York Times has one now every few months. Has the firm lost its way or are lights just being put in places McKinsey would rather they weren’t?

Maybe McKinsey hasn’t kept up its media buys in the NYT lately.

Re: McKinsey Advised Purdue Pharma How to ‘Turbocharge’ Opioid Sales, Lawsuit Says

#70

Post by goldenkey »

YjSe2GMQ wrote: post #62
goldenkey wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. All these god-damned opiate laws made it so hard to get renewals of medication for my chronic pain. And insurance stopped covering Tapentadol which was by far the most effective and safest drug. In 2011 I was pummeled and then tortured in LA by police/jail officials, which caused cervical spine damage. So I switched to kratom. Its a shame but kratom is much healthier anyhow. It has vitamins and minerals an…

It's a well known fact for anyone practicing palliative medicine that often you have to shuffle around opioids to see which one works. And there is really nothing special about oxycodone, it's just another opioid that's been known for over 100 years. It's great that it worked for you guys (for real, it's fantastic), but the whole concept of systematically pushing a particular opioid is disturbing.

Tapentadol isnt a standard opioid. Its an upgraded version of Tramadol that required millions of dollars in funding to research and discover. It is by the same company, Depomed, who discovered Tramadol. Tapentadol is an amazing drug with better pain relief than actual standard opioids like morphine or oxy.
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