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The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

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Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#61
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your opinion seems to echo the author's so it was an obvious question, though I only expected to hear yours > Maybe he wouldn't have had to be sold as an indentured servant, Again, that wasn't his choice. There was no choice for Jackie Chan. That was his parents' choice. The only choice Jackie had is to either to focus on attaining his definition of success, while acknowledging the past; or to let the obsession of th…

> Your opinion seems to echo the author's so it was an obvious question But it doesn't. I wrote a single paragraph, mostly describing what I thought was a key aspect of the article, and calling it "interesting". The author wrote a whole article addressing multiple things. I'm not even the submitter of the article! Your assumptions are unwarranted. > neither you nor the author mentioned this until now which made your…

Maybe I am arguing with you because I can't do the same with the author. Does your comment not reiterate the article's core ideas in a nice little package? The size of the content is irrelevant when it resonates with the larger work. Is it not natural to ask "What's the point?" when none was seemingly provided?

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#62
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, sure, it would be way better if Hong Kong weren't the colonial hell-hole it was. In what sense is Hong Kong a colonial hell-hole? (Take this not as a challenge, but as a question from someone who is unfamiliar with the idea.) Is there an underclass trapped there? Do the people in it feel trapped?

I am glad you used the word trapped - https://www.nationalgeographic.com/photography/proof/2017/07...

Wow! Eye-opening. Thanks for posting it.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lack of respect Chan gets in the west is a travesty IMO. His fight choreography is rooted in the traditions Chinese opera while being constantly fresh, playful and imaginative. He shows absolute technical mastery, but there is always a sense of child-like joy underpinning that mastery. The fact that his films are often regarded as frivolous and lightweight says something profound about what is valued in our cultu…

Doesn't he do a lot of frivolous and light-hearted movies though -- I'm a huge fan. Take a movie like "Who am I", it's like Johnny English meets Drunken Master. "Kung Fu" films to me always have a notion of slapstick, even the beautiful ones like House of Flying Daggers; Chan's background in Opera I imagine helps to fulfill that element of slightly ludicrous spectacle (at least if Chinese opera has any similarity to…

You can be goofy and fun and make high art. Slapstick spectacle can also be profound. There's a certain po-faced affectation that is necessary to be called an artist. Being good isn't good enough; you also need to convincingly ape the norms of a self-appointed cultural elite.

The disparity in esteem between pop and rock springs to mind. We have an ingrained sense that if a record appeals to 13-year-old girls, then it must on some level be inherently inferior to a record that appeals to middle-aged men, regardless of the actual sophistication of the music in question. A teenage boy learning to play guitar carries an entirely different set of cultural connotations and expectations than a teenage girl learning to sing, regardless of how much effort they each expend. The term "credibility" hides a deep vein of ugly bigotry.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#64

Jackie Chan, though, is an apologist for the Mainland government, and even suggested that Taiwan, perhaps (as of now) the only Chinese-speaking democracy, has “too much freedom.”

There's no country named "Taiwan". It is the Republic of China. "Taiwan" is the name of the island in Chinese. It is where the Chinese nationalist government (Kuomintang) sought refuge after losing mainland to the CCP. So it's not only a Chinese-speaking country, it claims to be the legitimate China.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was described in the article. A lot of economic activity there is only a few steps removed from human trafficking. And I'm sure a lot of that goes on there as well, but it's hard to track for obvious reasons.

I just read the article, and I didn't see any mention of human trafficking. The Hong Kong opera school is described as indentured servitude. And I'm sure a lot of that goes on there as well, but it's hard to track for obvious reasons. I think that summarizes the constant emotional undertones in this article. This article strikes me as a deliberate re-spinning of a story meant to be triumphal, making it the sneakiest…

"This article strikes me as a deliberate re-spinning of a story meant to be triumphal"

^ This right here.

There are many things to say about the damages caused by colonialism, but complaining that it's not covered in a book about Chan (who got immensely successful), in Hong Kong (which became very wealthy) in the 1960/70s (while the rest of China was basically burning down) misses the mark. There is a historical context that is quite specific to Hong Kong: the majority of its population actually moved there post-WW2 to escape the troubles on the mainland. Moreover before its decades of unrest, China had been ruled by the Qing, whom most Chinese considered to also be colonisers (the Qing were Manchus who imposed their customs on the Han Chinese majority), so in that regards the British were not some sort of uniquely evil rulers, they were yet another bunch of invaders, who happened to be slightly less violent than the other ones next door.

I think that's why Chan ignored the colonialist angle: it's kind of hard to hate on a city if your family willingly moved there. And yes there is hardship and injustice, but in the rest of China people are either getting purged or are literally dying of hunger. I believe his apolitical view of that era is quite common amongst his generation: yep HK was ruled by some foreigners for a while, next chapter please.

There are some Brits who would tell you that HK developed "thanks to" the UK (I am of the opinion that when a colonised city surpasses even the UK's GDP without being granted any meaningful democratic rights, they succeeded despite your rule, not because of it). This article takes the opposite position but still implies the same thing, that Hong-Kongers were victims with little agency, which I find patronizing when in reality they where a city of refugees who brilliantly navigated a difficult era. Likewise presenting Chan's physical trauma as representative of Hong-Kong's development strikes me as completely off. Lots and lots of people accessed the middle and upper class in the 70s and 80s. Most of them were not stuntmen, it turns out. I must say this is the first Western review I see of this book, and it's the first one that brings colonialism up seemingly out of nowhere. There is a little bit of "Chan's story is not really about him, it's about... us! the Western people" euro-centrism here, IMHO.

Also, since everyone is naming their favourite Jackie Chan movie, have a look at Project A and Project A2, they're a lot of fun (A2 actually tackles some colonialism-related topics in passing).

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#66
post #64

Jackie Chan, though, is an apologist for the Mainland government, and even suggested that Taiwan, perhaps (as of now) the only Chinese-speaking democracy, has “too much freedom.”

There's no country named "Taiwan". It is the Republic of China. "Taiwan" is the name of the island in Chinese. It is where the Chinese nationalist government (Kuomintang) sought refuge after losing mainland to the CCP. So it's not only a Chinese-speaking country, it claims to be the legitimate China.

I didn’t say country “Taiwan.” I referred to it as “Taiwan,” just as you might say “California” or “Hong Kong” or “Singapore.” Those can be place names, right? And all three have varying forms of government. Surely a place known as “Taiwan” exists? And it is, for now, a place that has self-determination and democracy?

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#67

The author doesn't want to treat Chan's insistence on his account being an inspirational one and just wants to see it as sad. I'm reminded of a Quora answer by a guy who loved fighting, one phrase he used stuck out at me. "Great fighters have to kind of like getting hit." You can't push your body to its very limits without getting injured. Planning and preparing for it is not sad, it's smart. Chan's account should be…

> "Great fighters have to kind of like getting hit."

I'd generalize it to: "Great craftspeople have to kind of like the part of their craft that is unpleasant to 99% of the population."

Someone who excels at playing violin, writing computer software, public speaking, etc., generally does not find the "unpleasant" part to be "tiring", "boring", or "work". Instead, it's just part of the overall experience, which is a net positive.

When I was younger, I had a classmate who's an excellent violin player. Her practice schedule sounded awful to me, with well over an hour spent even on weekdays. I played musical instruments, too, and I liked a little practice, but rarely more than 30 minutes in a day.

I asked the violin player about this schedule, and the way she answered the question made it clear that practicing didn't seem unpleasant, or like "work," like it would to many other people. It was something she truly enjoyed.

Similar things can be applied to software development and liking the idea of investigating obtuse error messages and things breaking without any clear root cause.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#68
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rush Hour 1 through 3 have long been some of my favourite movies! If we're getting into Jackie Chan movies, though, one cannot leave out Drunken Master

A note of clarification: Drunken Master is pretty good! Drunken Master II (re-released in slightly edited form as "Legend of the Drunken Master" in the US) is the one that's typically regarded as a bona-fide classic masterpiece.

[deleted]

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#69

We have this tendency to look at successful people and think we can imitate them and have their success. I see Bill Gates is always giving a list of his favorite books of the year. Sorry Bill, if I read your books, I won't be a billionaire. Well Jackie Chan as great, talented, funny as he is. No matter what, I will never be him. Survivor bias and luck play a large role beyond what hard work and pain alone do.

This attitude may be technically correct, but it's not very productive. Why emphasize your own lack of control over your life? It's certainly possible for it to become a self-fulfilling prophecy, even if the inverse is not true.

Not productive in what sense? Knowing your limits let's you focus your energy in other ways and areas

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#70
post #2

Here’s a really cool video breaking down exactly how Jackie sets up his stunt-action-comedy. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1PCtIaM_GQ One thing that was particular interesting to me is how the setup always starts with him at an extreme disadvantage: no shoes, tied to a chair, hanging upside down, etc. I never noticed it before and it’s exactly what makes his action so enjoyable to watch. (The YouTube Channel is call…

The lack of respect Chan gets in the west is a travesty IMO. His fight choreography is rooted in the traditions Chinese opera while being constantly fresh, playful and imaginative. He shows absolute technical mastery, but there is always a sense of child-like joy underpinning that mastery. The fact that his films are often regarded as frivolous and lightweight says something profound about what is valued in our cultu…

About Jackie Chans’s image in the West, for what it’s worth there are still some people who have recognized how great he is, I remember reading a laudatory article about his movies in the French movie magazine “Cahiers du Cinema” way back in late 2001, and the Cahiers du Cinema people are generally known to be pretty insufferable and elitist. I think they also focused one of their famous Hors-Serie issues on Hong Kong cinema in the ‘80s (that one I didn’t read).
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