Earlier quoted context omitted.
completely agree. I'm roughly same age as you, same experience. When we were kids we literally ran all over the place until dark with no adult supervision. Man I still remember coming home, having cuts and bruises all over me, having a pencil stuck out of my arm, bleeding, covered in poison ivy, the works. But I loved it! Those were some of the best memories of my life, exploring the woods, building tree forts and sw…
My mate Bob had free-ranging parents, but he was hit by a car and killed when he was seven so he's not here to say "survivor bias".
Mom Lets Her Kids Walk to the Bakery Down the Block. CPS Chastises Her
61–70 of 76 posts
Re: Mom Lets Her Kids Walk to the Bakery Down the Block. CPS Chastises Her
#62Re: Mom Lets Her Kids Walk to the Bakery Down the Block. CPS Chastises Her
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree 100% but I think you are putting the blame in the wrong place. When the system is bad, people will abuse it - always. i.e you will always get busybodys and idiots. I think CPS has too much power here, to intervene in a case where there was no obvious harm.
We’ve made a system to encourage and enable busybodies, though. The system is this way because some people wanted it to be. I don’t think CPS is always the problem—often they’re obligated to investigate.
Re: Mom Lets Her Kids Walk to the Bakery Down the Block. CPS Chastises Her
#64I wonder how we got to this. I'm all for parents being protective over children that aren't theirs, but when did we develop the entitlement that we should police the parents of other children? Obligatory "When I grew up...": When I grew up (I'm 32), there were still murderers, kidnappers, drug dealers, gangs, etc. My parents and the parents of all my friends let us roam free from the minute we finished our chores unt…
Greater access to television and the evening news ritual did us in. Watching constant daily reports on murders and robberies in your city tends to cause people to think that the sky is falling, when of course, crime has been collapsing since the 1990s. [0] In fairness to the current generation of parents in their late 30s to early 50s, violent crime spiked dramatically in the 1990s and has only recently returned to 1…
CPS's only reason for existence, and only reason for their funding is "investigating" child abuse. Now you might say, but there's many more serious ones they'll also investigate. Well, yes, but there's serious incentives against doing actual serious cases:
1) they'll fail very often (a sad truth is that nearly all psychiatric treatments fail, and on children, well read on ...)
2) there's a lot of risk (violent children and parents, sometimes families and friends, or the patients may organize against their "carers", read on ...)
3) there's often no solution (e.g. bad living arrangements because parents don't have money. Can't be fixed of course by psychiatric treatment. Bad attitude because teachers are racist. There is a dizzying array of problems that look psychological from a distance but aren't)
And keep in mind they can get out of nearly anything by either not finding a problem or declaring some case done.
So how you solve these problems, as an organisation ? FOR the organisation, of course, not for the children:
("after all if the organisation doesn't exist anymore people are no longer protected. Therefore the organisation's protection must come first" is the excuse used by the smarter bureaucrats)
1) You just don't take actual cases, and use threats to make up the numbers.
When there is no actual problem, it's very easy to treat kids, especially with the threat of incarceration or permanent "placement" to make kids and parents say whatever you want them to say.
Ironically you can recognize this easily. Real psychiatric treatments succeed in something like 10% of cases at most (sucks, but that's the truth. On children, it's even less and the most important factor that determines success is whether the mother is administering or at least assisting treatment). Any organisation that reports 20% effectiveness or more is abusing it's position this way, and making patients lie to escape them.
Any director that demands realistic figures from his organisation would be fired on the spot because of that unfortunate truth, that most people can't be helped.
2) Again you just don't take these cases. How do you do that ? Well, when kids or parents are violent, they are immediately declared cured (as happened in Arnhem just yesterday [2]). Because the organisation can't expect its employees to deal with violence and it never has the means to secure their employees either (besides you can't really protect against violence 24/7. Think about that for a bit, because you'll see it's obviously true and it'll raise many questions you really should be asking). So they pretty much have to.
3) They actually don't want these cases, because nothing will work. So they try to keep these people out. There's the additional problem that too many of these people have nothing to lose, so they will come out and try to expose the problems of CPS.
This has one BIG exception. The other side of CPS is of course people who want children. Foster parents. They can't, or won't, get them the regular way, and of course group 3) is a good source of children, because they're unable to defend themselves legally, and there's DAMN many of them. Problem is, this will go badly wrong with children that are above a certain very young age (because they'll understand what is being done to them and when that happens, of course a significant portion uses violence against foster parents, and anyone and anything around them. Can you blame them ?). Hence the constant effort by CPS organisations to change the laws so they can interfere sooner and sooner in the life of a child. Right into the womb [1]
The truly terrible part of foster parents is that becoming foster parents ... they may do that for criminal reasons (worst case because they're paedophiles that want access to and power over children). CPS of course, is heavily incentivized to cover this up. Unless you think it is good for a government department, whose only useful currency is making politicians look good, to admit they handed children over to paedophiles, sometimes with handcuffs around the childrens' wrists. It is equally obvious to see that this will, inevitably, happen to these services.
And of course there is a group where CPS actually help: parents are human. They may die. They may get ill to the point they can't take care of children. They may run away, for whatever reason. They may be taken away by other parts of the state, like the criminal justice system or adult psychiatry. This of course, can never be a reason to use the violence of CPS institutions against these children (which is done anyway, of course), but this is presumably a good use for foster parents. But this is a tiny minority of children in "protection" everywhere.
In most places CPS is also used as a correctional facility for criminal youth. This may or may not be separate from regular CPS, although it mostly isn't. Also, in many places, for children, acting against CPS decisions is pretty much the only possible crime a child can commit. This, of course, was instituted at the request of CPS in most cases (coincidence ? Hah !).
Obviously at a high level the CPS organisation will maximize incoming money and size of the organisation, while minimizing having it's employees in contact with the disincentives.
So anybody at the top of this organisation has only one option available to them. "Treat" as many innocent kids as possible, and stay as far away as possible from actual problems, with the exception of forms of abandonment, and provide people who want them with a source of children.
Now there's a slight issue with that. Treating those kids (past a certain level) ... means kidnapping them and locking them up against their will. Which, of course, is very traumatic, which is why the threats work. An issue is that this does of course cause long term psychological damage to those children, but ...
If there is a very public case of child abuse, they'll send someone out to "deal" with that one specifically, of course.
Last big problem for any form of CPS is of course that they lock up and take power away from children and parents. Remind you of anyone ? Right: CPS attracts, of course, child abusers and paedophiles, for reasons that are entirely obvious to anyone (they usually pay dismally, so people working there are doing it for other reasons). This goes from their own employees being more than a little bit prone to psychological or outright sexual abuse of interned children, but doesn't stop there: pimps have always found CPS institutions to be a very rich recruiting ground. And as pointed out above, foster parents don't always have good motives, or to put it another way: some portion of them are paedophiles that want to rape kids.
CPS is of course dependent on their public image, and therefore heavily disincentivized to police this, and heavily incentivized to choose the side of the paedophiles and abusers when they do get caught. The alternative is admitting that a LOT of child abuse happens within CPS itself, which of course leads to the question if they're making things better or worse in the total.
Because of the incentives for CPS, there can however be no doubt: child services makes things a LOT worse for kids. It is a necessity for a tiny, tiny minority of kids, which is the excuse used.
That's why you see this, a case combining half the problems: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/norways_hidden_s....
a) important child services director turns out to be ... a paedophile. Has been for decades "enjoying child porn" (his words)
b) has been assigned kids into his care
c) those kids are kept with him, youth services sees no reason to change that despite child porn conviction (needless to say, they have placed kids for far less)
d) child services actually defends the person in court and doesn't extract punishment. He is politely asked to leave the child services council, nothing more
e) child services tries to buy parents' silence by offering them their kids back (a bit of conjecture, of course, but ... does anyone really believe anything else happened there ?)
And this is in Norway. I don't know for sure, but it seems to me the situation in the US is very likely to be worse.
If you look for it but a little bit, you will find that child services organisations everywhere have gotten caught in incredible scandals.
These incentives mean, of course, that you just cannot morally risk having these organisations at all. You just cannot allow non-voluntary psychological aid.
[1] http://rotherhamscb.proceduresonline.com/chapters/p_sg_babie.... (they're having an international conference about what people should call "stealing babies right from the womb")
[2] https://nos.nl/artikel/2265037-arnhemse-vader-die-zoon-ombra.... (in dutch, but ...) TLDR: parent turns violent against youth care and adult psychiatric care, is immediately declared "cured" ("uitbehandeld") and three months later grabs a sword and attempts to murder his family. Son is dead, 2 others escaped.
[2 bis] one of the stories of a kid that has some wrong friends. Mom alerts youth care, eventually the kids gets placed after getting caught stealing more than a few times. Kid organises her "group" and the group attacks the staff with makeshift knives. Declared cured within a week (without, of course, any CPS employee seeing this kid to make such a diagnosis), dumped back with mother.
Re: Mom Lets Her Kids Walk to the Bakery Down the Block. CPS Chastises Her
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
These posts rarely point out incredibly strict immigration policies and the stark racial makeup of the countries that rely on group dynamics for rather inconvenient reasons. When you have a largely homogenous population that has been stable over decades - centuries in the case of Japan - then these types of relationships evolve.
It has nothing to do with immigration. I was out walking to school, going to the bakery, sledding, etc with friends in Germany throughout the 90s from like age 6.
Re: Mom Lets Her Kids Walk to the Bakery Down the Block. CPS Chastises Her
#66Do we have any studies done yet which show whether or not this is a growing trend or just random isolated incidents in countries with millions and millions of families containing children? In my region and places I travel I see children walking around everywhere and there don’t seem to be armies of CPS workers stalking them. I guess I’m just wondering if this is an actual trend or just more outrage_porn attempting to…
It's actually nice to see, as my hometown is not like that at all. Parents often won't even let their kids go to the park playground while watching an older (and sometimes younger!) sibling play ball. That's despite the fact there's other parents over there, and it's fairly small so everyone really does seem to know everyone. A family friend has gotten criticized for letting their kids walk from their house to their grandparents, which wasn't even a mile on back roads. They also let their son ride his bike to the park often (2 miles, perhaps), and got criticized for that. It's really weird to see the contrast in the two places.
Re: Mom Lets Her Kids Walk to the Bakery Down the Block. CPS Chastises Her
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
completely agree. I'm roughly same age as you, same experience. When we were kids we literally ran all over the place until dark with no adult supervision. Man I still remember coming home, having cuts and bruises all over me, having a pencil stuck out of my arm, bleeding, covered in poison ivy, the works. But I loved it! Those were some of the best memories of my life, exploring the woods, building tree forts and sw…
My mate Bob had free-ranging parents, but he was hit by a car and killed when he was seven so he's not here to say "survivor bias".
Re: Mom Lets Her Kids Walk to the Bakery Down the Block. CPS Chastises Her
#68Re: Mom Lets Her Kids Walk to the Bakery Down the Block. CPS Chastises Her
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is not true. CPS comes out all the time for ridiculous things like 8-year-olds walking alone in a neighborhood (first time). Read any parenting blog. We really need a law like Utah's in every state.
> We really need a law like Utah's in every state. That's a phrase I thought I'd never read. Utah has some of the most outrageous nanny state laws, worse than stuff I could even dream up.
That may be so, but it's irrelevant to the fact that this particular law is both wise and greatly needed.
Re: Mom Lets Her Kids Walk to the Bakery Down the Block. CPS Chastises Her
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
It has nothing to do with immigration. I was out walking to school, going to the bakery, sledding, etc with friends in Germany throughout the 90s from like age 6.
Yes, Western European countries - particularly in the 1990s - have a much less diverse racial makeup than counterparts like the United States of America. That's exactly my point.
The political and media landscape in the US is blatantly, openly toxic and corrupted so severely by just a few powerful people that it feels second maybe only to the Soviet Union and despotic dictatorships. Race (and religious difference) has always been, since the foundation of the country, the thing that the ruling classes of the US blame while pillaging the commonwealth. While you may idolize ethno-nationalism, it will solve no real social problems.
Racial minorities in the US have been systemically mistreated for centuries. To look at a Native American reservation today and blame its residents for their own misfortune is equivalent to ripping out 350 years worth of pages from a US History book. It's deluded. Racial minorities in the US don't choose a harder life of fewer opportunities and a tougher path to success -- they have it imposed on them by hundreds of years of force.