Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

fascinatingmaps.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 156 posts

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#61

Post by badpun »

Randomswiss wrote: post #43
badpun wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What makes land and people on one side of an arbitrary line so different from land and people on the other side of it? Cultures? People on one both sides of the border generally have different culture and hierarchies of values. Thanks to borders, every nation gets to organize their piece of earth as they see fit (at least in democracies).

Then what about Switzerland who speak 3 langues (4 officially). We talk English together and the French part is generally more focus on France than Switzerland (I'm from that part)

I guess you are still very distinct from say Belarusians or Japanese? In a world with no borders, the Swiss, Belarusians and Japanese would need to somehow agree on a common set of values that would govern this borderless world. And it’s hard enough to agree on policies in a single country.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#62

Post by tonfa »

denzil_correa wrote: post #48
FigBug wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you live in the EU are you supposed to carry your passport whenever you move between countries?

No, you don't if you are an EU national [0]. > If you are an EU national , you do not need to show your national ID card or passport when you are travelling from one border-free Schengen EU country to another. [0] https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/eu-c...

But airlines sometimes requires it (and afaik they're allowed to). (Not all, I've done quite a few flights without being ever checked, seems to depend on airlines and/or airports).

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#63

Post by badpun »

jwr wrote: post #52
badpun wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What makes land and people on one side of an arbitrary line so different from land and people on the other side of it? Cultures? People on one both sides of the border generally have different culture and hierarchies of values. Thanks to borders, every nation gets to organize their piece of earth as they see fit (at least in democracies).

I don't think that applies anymore these days. I am from Poland and culturally I have more in common with most Germans than with many of my compatriots. And my point is that the idea of "their piece of earth" is outdated. Apart from silliness and unnecessary politicians it leads to real problems, like countries deciding that they will burn oil and coal on "their piece of earth" and not care about climate catastrophe…

I am Polish too and I’d say were are on average very different from the Germans. A common, Polish-German state would be very hard to govern to due constant conflicts in values.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#64

Post by denzil_correa »

tonfa wrote: post #62
denzil_correa wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you don't if you are an EU national [0]. > If you are an EU national , you do not need to show your national ID card or passport when you are travelling from one border-free Schengen EU country to another. [0] https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/eu-c...

But airlines sometimes requires it (and afaik they're allowed to). (Not all, I've done quite a few flights without being ever checked, seems to depend on airlines and/or airports).

EU nationals can get by national ID cards - a passport isn't obligatory.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/eu-c...

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#65

Post by lisper »

dividuum wrote: post #12

Odd borders are funny. Here's two other examples: The utter chaos in Baarle. They even have nested enclaves. So area of Netherlands surrounded by Belgium surrounded by Netherlands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Nassau https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/51.4402/4.9316 Between Germany and Switzerland, there's the German exclave Büsingen am Hochrhein. They have odd tax rules as Swiss VAT is applied. https://en…

My favorite is the border between India and Bangladesh:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/India/@26.2070568,89.16078...

You have to zoom in to fully appreciate it. It looks like a fractal.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#66

Post by wongarsu »

gnulinux wrote: post #56
rhodac wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to have government provided services funded by taxes, you need to determine who will be paying those taxes. Borders provide a clean division between the paying customers for a particular government's services, and those who are not.

This strikes me as a naive, European way to understand borders (governments are services, you get to choose who to pay your taxes to). Most of the world's people are born to governments they do not endorse, and do not want to pay taxes to, yet they still have to. I was born in a shitty country and even though I've been living in the US last 5 years, I still have duties to my home country such as taxes, military, comm…

But you did decide that you didn't like how your original government runs things, and you switched to a different government. That's very much in line with the European understanding of government. Your only problem is that the US is extremely picky with accepting new customers.

Also note how many of your problems are exceptional. Few countries raise taxes from money that never enters or leaves their country, and military service requirements are often paused while you are abroad. You have it harder than most.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#67

Post by lucideer »

jamiegreen wrote: post #46
lucideer wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few countries have started to introduce this recently due to paranoia around Syrian refugees. It's extremely controversial, as it basically nullifies Schengen, but countries are apparently allowed by the agreement to put these spot checks in place (provided some political procedures) up to 20 out of every 60 days.

Is it paranoia, or just a sensible way for states to implement some semblance of control over their own border when a EU wide strategy seems out of reach?

It's paranoia.

In order to argue that it's sensible, you have to first demonstrate a disimprovement in affairs warranting a change in policy, and secondly show a causal link between "outsiders" that your border control is targeting and those disimprovements.

Even if you could manage the former of those two (which I don't believe you could, though I might be mistaken), the latter is definitely not the case.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#68

Post by rags2riches »

badpun wrote: post #33
jwr wrote: post #32

This is a good time to consider what a ridiculous concept "borders" are, especially within the EU. What makes land and people on one side of an arbitrary line so different from land and people on the other side of it? Borders are necessary because of power-hungry politicians: without borders, entire levels of governments would become unnecessary. This is why we hear so much about "patriotism" these days.

> What makes land and people on one side of an arbitrary line so different from land and people on the other side of it? Cultures? People on one both sides of the border generally have different culture and hierarchies of values. Thanks to borders, every nation gets to organize their piece of earth as they see fit (at least in democracies).

It has hardly ever been that clean cut in practice. And the attempts to enforce the strict divisions have not been pretty.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#69

Post by zaarn »

t0mas88 wrote: post #58
zaarn wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in Germany you have a legal duty to have a passport or ID card, if a police officer asks for one but you don't have it, you'll either be brought into the next police station (if you don't have a legal address) until it clears up or show up at your nearest police station within 24 hours or up to a week, depending on the situation. Though generally if you don't have it, you usually get an oral warning and have…

Yes, Netherlands has this law, but the fine is around € 90 if you don't have it, not 3000.

I mentioned similar law, not same, the 3000 are also only if you don't have any passport or ID card at all. Like, you couldn't possibly show one.

Not having it heavily depends on the situation, there are some where you may end up being fined.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#70

Post by jstanley »

jamiegreen wrote: post #46
lucideer wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few countries have started to introduce this recently due to paranoia around Syrian refugees. It's extremely controversial, as it basically nullifies Schengen, but countries are apparently allowed by the agreement to put these spot checks in place (provided some political procedures) up to 20 out of every 60 days.

Is it paranoia, or just a sensible way for states to implement some semblance of control over their own border when a EU wide strategy seems out of reach?

It is no more "sensible" for a state to be exercising control of its border than it is for a town to be exercising control over its border. We're all free people in the world, and we should be able to move around it freely. There should be no borders at all.
Post reply on HN