The legal discovery process is an interesting one here - we are seeing documents almost 50 years old here, paper records of what, prima facie is damning behaviour. But who keeps records for fifty years any more? My BigCo Employers delete my mails after a quarter usually. The idea of my emails being dragged up in 20 years is crazy Edit: I meant to say that new practises like deleting emails are likely to ensure that c…
Johnson and Johnson knew for decades that asbestos lurked in its Baby Powder
61–70 of 94 posts
Re: Johnson and Johnson knew for decades that asbestos lurked in its Baby Powder
#62We shouldn't be surprised that this sort of thing happens from time to time. What are the incentives? If you're an exec in charge of some product, you want to sell the product. You don't want to be pulling it, you'll never get promoted like that. And you know more about how to move product than about asbestos testing results, that's for sure. And chances are nothing will be discovered. And if it is discovered it will…
> you want to sell the product but if it has a carcinogen in it? do you really still want to? i fail to understand how humans can behave like this.
This quote gets brought out a lot, for good reason, but I think people don’t quite grasp its meaning. It’s often understood as meaning that people will play dumb in order to resist you. But it goes deeper than that. A person will literally have a difficult time understanding something if that understanding will put their livelihood on the line.
I would wager that essentially everybody involved in this process had a twisted understanding of the problem that left them convinced that what they were doing was harmless.
Re: Johnson and Johnson knew for decades that asbestos lurked in its Baby Powder
#63We shouldn't be surprised that this sort of thing happens from time to time. What are the incentives? If you're an exec in charge of some product, you want to sell the product. You don't want to be pulling it, you'll never get promoted like that. And you know more about how to move product than about asbestos testing results, that's for sure. And chances are nothing will be discovered. And if it is discovered it will…
It happens all the time. You just hear about it one time out of every thousand. The history of industry is littered with these kinds of intentional, knowing abuses of consumers.
> Not saying I have an answer.
Tremendously high penalties that destroy all profitability gained from consumer abuse and prison time for those knowingly engaging in abusive behavior.
Re: Johnson and Johnson knew for decades that asbestos lurked in its Baby Powder
#64Everybody knew? Talc deposits often occur near asbestos deposits. There's a govt standard for 'cosmetic' talc that addresses asbestos content, that's been around since 1973.
Did you read the entire article? The FDA was guided by J&J to set the standard at 10x higher than their original proposal, and to reduce testing to an inexpensive test that only detects the least common type of asbestos. Basically, the article contends, the standard that "everybody knew" about is meaningless and was not much more than positive press for J&J.
Anything else is not much more than ragging on J&J.
Re: Johnson and Johnson knew for decades that asbestos lurked in its Baby Powder
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's the target, but how do you reach it without creating more issues? Say you have a stringent approval process run by a government agency. Well that takes time. If the product actually works fine you've lost out on the benefits in the meantime.
You can get most of the benefit by testing the product after it hits the market and hit those found harmful with high punishments. Bonus points if not just the company is liable but someone in higher management can be personally held liable. Testing before it hits the market is safer, but giving compliance departments enough incentive to care gets you 95% of the way.
If I were designing regulations like this, and I actually had the goal of curtailing this sort of behavior, the fines would be tied to the total revenue of the product, like (total revenue + capital gains) * 1.25 (where the .25 is the punitive fine %)
That way there's no business tradeoff except "if we get caught, we're fucked". Like, in this situation the fine would be all the revenue ever made with the product for 40 years, and whatever interest they could reasonably calculate, times some proportional punitive amount. J&J would maybe be looking at a bankruptcy for it.
It may be too much, but I'd also be tempted to look into criminal charges for anyone with fiduciary responsibility related to the breach. So like the people who were directly responsible are charged criminally, but also their manager, and that person's manager, and so on up to the CEO. If line workers doing shady things could blow back into jail time for CEOs, certainly CEOs would be way more interested in making certain that everything was on the up and up. Just build in corrective procedures like a window for disclosure to law enforcement or regulators if something shady is discovered internally, to give the company a chance to correct the situation if there's a rogue actor or whatever.
I know the idea is impractical in a variety of ways, and as a person who has run organizations of various sizes it scares me to contemplate because I know first hand that people just do dumb shit sometimes and I can't always stop it.
But the incentives do feel too far the "it's easy and profitable to get away with" side.
Re: Johnson and Johnson knew for decades that asbestos lurked in its Baby Powder
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
Did you read the article? They explain that "traces of" was actually as high as 3% in some samples. The bulk of the article explains the tests performed over time including the results of concentration. Not sure what your complaint is, they even link to the original test result documents.
3% of other (minerals?) than talk. Not 3% asbestos to make that clear.
Re: Johnson and Johnson knew for decades that asbestos lurked in its Baby Powder
#67"All My Sons is based upon a true story... how in 1941–43 the Wright Aeronautical Corporation based in Ohio had conspired with army inspection officers to approve defective aircraft engines destined for military use"
Re: Johnson and Johnson knew for decades that asbestos lurked in its Baby Powder
#68We shouldn't be surprised that this sort of thing happens from time to time. What are the incentives? If you're an exec in charge of some product, you want to sell the product. You don't want to be pulling it, you'll never get promoted like that. And you know more about how to move product than about asbestos testing results, that's for sure. And chances are nothing will be discovered. And if it is discovered it will…
You then describe the behavior of a sociopath.
Re: Johnson and Johnson knew for decades that asbestos lurked in its Baby Powder
#69We shouldn't be surprised that this sort of thing happens from time to time. What are the incentives? If you're an exec in charge of some product, you want to sell the product. You don't want to be pulling it, you'll never get promoted like that. And you know more about how to move product than about asbestos testing results, that's for sure. And chances are nothing will be discovered. And if it is discovered it will…
Also I have a very hard time following the 'poisoning infants is OK as long as I get a promotion' line of thought.
Re: Johnson and Johnson knew for decades that asbestos lurked in its Baby Powder
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
> you want to sell the product but if it has a carcinogen in it? do you really still want to? i fail to understand how humans can behave like this.
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!” - Upton Sinclair This quote gets brought out a lot, for good reason, but I think people don’t quite grasp its meaning. It’s often understood as meaning that people will play dumb in order to resist you. But it goes deeper than that. A person will literally have a difficult time understanding something if tha…