Apparently nobody has heard of prepaid debit cards?
A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor
61–70 of 85 posts
Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor
#62A cashless society requires computers to work flawlessly to function. It requires those controlling the network to make decisions with the public's best interest foremost.
Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor
#63A hipster-ish coffee shop I use has now gone cashless entirely - you cannot pay with cash. They must have hit a tipping point where the faff of cash drawers, trips to the bank and so on were not worth it.
Seem to remember something about 'legal tender'. Meant you had to accept cash payment. Of course you could refuse the customer on other grounds... Might not be a thing in the land of hipster-ish coffee shops.
It's not a thing anywhere, there is no compulsion in law associated with the "legal tender" status, that seems to be an internet myth.
Nobody has to accept a jar of pennies, or a house purchase in singles, or even cash at all.
Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor
#64My bank locked me out of my account because they didn't approve of the way I was using it (crypto whitdrawal). All fully legal, from an exchange account I hold in my name. They now give me the runarround asking me to prove with paper documents that I own the money (interesting reversal to physical interaction). No calls, no case person I can talk to, just an impersonal postage address, and if I contact the branch all…
> It creates a paralel, private justice system Can't you just bring the traditional justice system back into it, for instance, by suing them in small claims court demanding the release of your money? The judiciary supersedes whatever internal mechanisms the bank has; if the court tells the bank to give back your money corrected for inflation plus moral damages, they have no choice but to comply.
Small claims courts have very low limits. So he would need to sue in a federal court ( unless it is a state chartered bank ), which takes time and costs a lot of money.
This is why one should have multiple bank accounts spread all over jurisdictions as well as keep some cash and credit lines ( also spread among different banks )
Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor
#65If the problem is that some people don't have a checking account, wouldn't it better to provide them with a cheap/free checking account? Even if all local shops accept cash, there's still tons of stuff you can't do without a checking account. On the topic of cash-free living: I only use cash for 3 things these days: to buy cheese, to pay my cleaning lady, and for my son's weekly allowance. Even the babysitters accept…
Why do you need cash for buying cheese specifically?
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Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor
#66My bank locked me out of my account because they didn't approve of the way I was using it (crypto whitdrawal). All fully legal, from an exchange account I hold in my name. They now give me the runarround asking me to prove with paper documents that I own the money (interesting reversal to physical interaction). No calls, no case person I can talk to, just an impersonal postage address, and if I contact the branch all…
> It creates a paralel, private justice system Can't you just bring the traditional justice system back into it, for instance, by suing them in small claims court demanding the release of your money? The judiciary supersedes whatever internal mechanisms the bank has; if the court tells the bank to give back your money corrected for inflation plus moral damages, they have no choice but to comply.
The point is, I shouldn't have to do that; if access to banking is necessary for survival then the burden should be on the bank to get a court order before they have the right to freeze an account.
If I sue the bank, it's an absolute guarantee I will be locked out of the account for a few months to a year until the case is settled. And it will be a civil claim against a commercial entity, the burden of proof is on me, I don't have access to a free lawyer and so on. The parallel justice system has already scored a massive victory against me from day one by stripping me of most civil rights.
That's fine and dandy in a world where banking is optional and banks are businesses like any other, but in a cashless world being locked out of banking is a sentence to homelessness or death. How many days of rent delay will your landlord accept until he evicts you? How many days can you live on the streets before you are being fired from your job? What is the average life expectancy of a homeless person with no income and how often do they win in court against major financial institutions?
Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
Only about 60% of all Chinese even have a smartphone. [1] "Everyone" you saw was probably a relatively well-off member of the middle class in a first-tier city. As a tourist, you obviously won't see anyone who can't afford visiting a touristy area. Try looking for a place more than an hour from any public transport and check again whether the people there all use cashless payment. [1] https://www.statista.com/statist…
> As a tourist, you obviously won't see anyone who can't afford visiting a touristy area. This is totally untrue. Tourist areas attract beggars. Beggars may not have smartphones, but penetration in first-tier cities goes much farther than "relatively well-off members of the middle class".
Interestingly, beggars even have QR codes for WeChat payments: http://www.asiaone.com/china/no-loose-change-beggars-china-n...
Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor
#68A society without cash is a society in which every person has no choice but to get the permission of someone they don’t know and will never meet each and every time they seek to obtain food, water, shelter, or transportation, and that permission can be revoked instantly, silently, and invisibly at any time. This is now before the city council in NYC, as the article points out, so the topic has come up in conversation…
Can't we build trustable payment providers?
A system can never be more trustworthy than the people controlling it. The problem with that is simple: A perfectly trustworthy American military would be as trustworthy as Trump.
Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It creates a paralel, private justice system Can't you just bring the traditional justice system back into it, for instance, by suing them in small claims court demanding the release of your money? The judiciary supersedes whatever internal mechanisms the bank has; if the court tells the bank to give back your money corrected for inflation plus moral damages, they have no choice but to comply.
The point is, I shouldn't have to do that; if access to banking is necessary for survival then the burden should be on the bank to get a court order before they have the right to freeze an account. If I sue the bank, it's an absolute guarantee I will be locked out of the account for a few months to a year until the case is settled. And it will be a civil claim against a commercial entity, the burden of proof is on me…
> The point is, I shouldn't have to do that;
Don't worry about it. You can't.
https://tax.findlaw.com/tax-problems-audits/ten-things-to-re...
Things that can be done to you without any (beforehand) judicial oversight , by the IRS. Or, for that matter, can legally happen without so much as warning to you.
File a tax lien against you;
Levy your bank account;
Garnish your wages;
Close down your business;
Seize and sell your home;
Damage employment and business relationships;
Assess you personally for corporate employment taxes;
Put you in a monthly installment payment arrangement that is too high;
Contact your banker, neighbors, friends and business relationships concerning your tax liabilities;
Go after third party transferees of your assets.
We are effectively proposing adding "taking every last dollar out of your, your family and kids and anyone you did business with wallet directly".
The government is not very reasonable when it feels it is owed money.
Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor
#70Another side-effect is for donations. In London it's possible to live without any cash. Even markets are accepting cards now. There are often charities that are asking for money at the entrances of the tube. The UK is depending quite heavily on charities for people in need. This year it looks like they started equipping themselves with contact-less payment systems. It would be interesting to be able to see the number…
> What is quite sad is that beggars are not able to equip themselves with contact-less payment systems In Sweden I've seen a beggar with a "Swish" number displayed. (Swish is the domestic cashless person-to-person payment system, all you need to use it is a cell phone and a bank account). So it's not impossible for beggars to be cashless.
Can everyone get a bank account in Sweden?
I don't know if the experience of giving some physical money to someone necessarily translates well. Do you know if people actually bother to read/scan the "Swish" number to do donations?