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Passwords: Using 3 Random Words Is a Really Bad Idea (2017)

paul.reviews

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Re: Passwords: Using 3 Random Words Is a Really Bad Idea (2017)

#61
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have n schemes that you’re targeting, that’s only a slowdown by a factor of n , because you share effort between the two schemes. A cracker can try all the word combinations below a certain depth, then try all the passwords below a certain depth. Then increase the search space a bit for each, as long as they want.

That's fine if your only other scheme is "exact matching words". But once you break from that, even a little bit, the number of different possible schemes balloons quickly. For instance, 3 words + a symbol at the end. A cracker can try all the words, sure. But they're probably not going to try every different "all the words plus a little twist" schemes.

Most of those schemes fall into the category of:

sym,word,sym,word,sym,word,sym

Where sym is 0-1 symbols or numbers, and comma indicates concatenation.

If you use 5+symbols you’re probably creating enough entropy, but you’re veering into hard to type, might as well just use gibberish territory.

Re: Passwords: Using 3 Random Words Is a Really Bad Idea (2017)

#62

What I don't understand is the math. Author makes the claim that using 3 words changes the combinatorics from 62^12 (62 characters, in 12 positions) to 20,000^3 (20k words, in 3 positions) but a hashing algorithm doesn't work with words, it works with characters, so if the words are 4 characters each, you've still got 12 characters to fill. Since an attacker doesn't know that you've not used symbols or numbers, they…

Imagine you got database with 100k passwords to crack. You want to crack as much passwords as possible in shortest time. You don't have time to go full brute force, and also you don't even know what was the length of password.

So first you get all dumb single passwords from dictionary (love, hate, fuck, password), if you have cracking rig or some beefed up server you will go through 100k passwords and all single words, starting with ones commonly used very quickly (sorry, but math I leave for others). Even though hash algorithm works on characters you just make hashes from dictionary words and compare to hash. You can go even further and have list of stupid words already hashed, so now you just need to compare prepared hashes (google rainbow tables), nice optimization. Then you can have improved dictionary with l33t sp33k.

Let's say you get 10% of passwords this way form 100k.

Now you see other people have stronger passwords, so still instead of going random generate combinations of 2 words and run through database, then you can go with combinations of 3 words. This will let's say get you another 20% of passwords.

There are many other optimizations you can come up with. Passwords that you did not cracked you just leave, you don't have incentives to run 12 character full brute force combinations. You have to get passwords as soon as you have them and start credential stuffing everywhere to get as much as you can. It is not some fun and games to crack your school mate password to post "I am stupid" on his wall.

Re: Passwords: Using 3 Random Words Is a Really Bad Idea (2017)

#63

No, using 3 random words isn't "a really bad idea". That's complete nonsense. The only "really bad idea" for passwords is password reuse. A unique 14 character three word password for each site you use will protect you from the threats you face online. The fact that someone can relatively quickly crack your password if you used 3 random words is meaningless. That only works if they knew that you did that in the first…

On the other hand, if you use a password manager to keep track of all those different passwords, just make them random 128bit hex values, you won't need to memorize them anyway.

Re: Passwords: Using 3 Random Words Is a Really Bad Idea (2017)

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if they know it doesn't matter. Online password brute force attacks are extremely rare. If you don't reuse passwords then offline attacks don't really matter to you.

This very week you had the Quora users info leak ( https://blog.quora.com/Quora-Security-Update ) where users info, including and their encrypted passwords, were compromised. Password reuse, or even following a simple pattern for having different password for each site (i.e. a seed+site name) is the main problem here. If one site falls, then it should not be trivial to deduce your password or how to attack it for oth…

So they brute force an account (a not insignificant effort and the attacker now sees your password of "fuzzykittytoes". What are they going to do with that information?

Target a bank with it? They can't bruteforce a 14 character password for the bank over the internet. What trivial method would you use to get into your bank account, if you didn't reuse that password?

Re: Passwords: Using 3 Random Words Is a Really Bad Idea (2017)

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Write it down on paper, put it in an envelope, and leave it in your home, preferably in a small fire resistant lockbox that you keep other important documents in. If your home isn't secure enough for this purpose due to roommates or other issues, ask a trusted friend, parent or relative to hold onto it and your other important documents on your behalf. If your situation makes putting it in someone else's hands a prob…

Not a safety deposit box at the bank?

Safe deposit boxes are an option but are expensive, inconvenient and often less secure. A bank clerical error, fubar, or payment issue could result in loss of the contents at any time. (See: https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/07/26/safe-boxes-stolen... )

When you need your password at 4:30PM, the bank is closed.

Also, it’s an awful place for important documents like a will, as the bank will require a court order for your family to open it upon your death.

Re: Passwords: Using 3 Random Words Is a Really Bad Idea (2017)

#66
post #5

The ONE thing stopping me from using a password manager is fear that I'll lose the master password. How do I get over this fear? Another thing is for example Chrome's built in password manager. If I make a bunch of accounts with these passwords, do I NEED Chrome to ever be able to log in to these accounts?

Use a master passphrase instead of a password. Make it quite long, and personal, so that you won't forget it easily. The longer you make it, the more "obvious" (to yourself) can you make it sound, without compromising its security. Something like "It was a sunny afternoon the day I met my lovely puppy Rocket". Just use your own words, and the chances of anyone guessing it will be lower than those of brute forcing it.

If you want to also have a shorter password for daily use, save it in a separate database protected with that long passphrase.

Re: Passwords: Using 3 Random Words Is a Really Bad Idea (2017)

#67

No, using 3 random words isn't "a really bad idea". That's complete nonsense. The only "really bad idea" for passwords is password reuse. A unique 14 character three word password for each site you use will protect you from the threats you face online. The fact that someone can relatively quickly crack your password if you used 3 random words is meaningless. That only works if they knew that you did that in the first…

No it is not if you assume people who crack passwords are dumb and brute force everything. Second part you assume people are good at making random words on the spot, if you make password for linkedin, probably many will end up "linked blue somethig".

In reality brute force is last resort, you have dictionaries, walks on keyboard. You can also use additional data about your target if you have database like name etc.

Re: Passwords: Using 3 Random Words Is a Really Bad Idea (2017)

#68
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also, add irregular punctuation & capitalization, throw in some numbers within words, include words from other languages that you know or look up. Or use near words of other languages. I have always thought of "3 random words" as a starting point for randomizing a password not literal advice to follow.

I wonder about that - given that a dictionary attack relies on known values (and can substitute out "l"'s for "1" and "!") - what happens if you write something like "Ger!bils"? Is the dictionary attack totally nullified, or is that possibly accounted for? That would seem to open up the potential space a ton.

Depends on the attacker, but it's probably accounted for at least partially. In some passwords where I don't care much about security I'll use this technique and some personal, site-specific mnemonic - if their logo reminded me of a gerbil, I might start with the name of a pet gerbil I once had and obfuscate it with character replacement or keyboard proximity replacement (same characters, one row up or down). These passwords are always unique to the site, which doesn't get any financial info.

When I need a secure password that's easy to remember I'll obfuscate the initials of a memorable passphrase from a joke, poem, song or book. My password manager is offline (remember the LastPass hack?) so I need to read from it once and type it in.

Update: I remembered this old article that describes some of the techniques that have been used to crack passwords, including 133t-character replacement: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/05/how-c...

Re: Passwords: Using 3 Random Words Is a Really Bad Idea (2017)

#69

Outside of the Twitter-verse, who actually advocates to use a 3 word passphrase? Use 5 or 6 words and the problems listed here vanish. Also, use diceware or an equivalent generator. If you're writing out a string of letters and characters, that's not going to be random either. The only way to generate a random password is to use a device that gives you random numbers. If you're relying on your working vocabulary and…

It doesn't even have to be truly random, just "random enough". If you were to use a passphrase like "Use 5 or 6 words and the problems listed here vanish", that wouldn't be random per se, but for an attacker it might as well be.

Re: Passwords: Using 3 Random Words Is a Really Bad Idea (2017)

#70
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To your first point, I think it's about priors about password choices. To take an extreme example, even if a site allows up to 32 alphanumeric characters, we don't just say passwords on this site are uniformly secure under metric (26+26+10)^32 because theoretically a brute-force approach would have to go through up that many permutations. (Such a number is an upper bound on your password security.) In particular, sho…

I might be misunderstanding your first paragraph, but I'm not saying that the exponent is constant, just the base. What I was saying is if the rules of the site allow for all lower, all upper, special characters, and numerals, the sum of that is your base. If your password is purplepenguinparade, the expectation is you've cracked it by the time you've completed combined_base^1 through combined_base^19. They could art…

Oops, that was my misunderstanding in the first paragraph :)

Maybe a clearer example w.r.t. the base^exponent value would be another highly structured class of long passwords, instead of short passwords. For example, those that are just a 2-character sequence repeated 20 times (e.g. abab...ab). You can still say that it'll take maybe up to 26^40 tries for an attacker to guess this, but that number should be more obviously too charitable, since less entropic classes of passwords are more likely to be guessed first.

More generally, this kind of counting analysis depends on your choice of attacker, and it's plausible for attackers to be more sophisticated than just trying all the strings in lexicographical order. A more concrete but still practical attack sketch adapted to the frequency of password schemes today could be: guess dictionary word combinations first, starting with common/short words/phrase lengths, then repeat with small perturbations, then more perturbations, and so on until you search all the remaining strings.

Then, the number of tries for such an attacker to find a 3-word passphrase with a few changes would be much closer to (some small constant) * (# dictionary words)^3 than (# characters)^(string length). Of course, you can still say that such an attacker would take at most (# characters)^(string length) tries to get it, but such an upper bound isn't as useful when the password is much more structured and easy to guess with a slightly more sophisticated attacker.

(Yet another way to put it: one shouldn't expect a password that's 'slightly out of reach' to be significantly more secure than a password that follows a scheme exactly - a more sophisticated attacker would test neighbouring passwords as it brute-forces the combinations in the scheme)

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