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Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

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Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#61

Post by tboyd47 »

rrggrr wrote: post #25

The only counter-measure that works against polluting the polity with influence operations is earnestly educating people to be critical consumers of information. Why? Because one cannot empower government to counter-message influence operations without risking an abuse of power. My son's middle school appears to be tackling this problem to some degree by teaching students to: (a) not accept 'facts' without multiple s…

The "flooding" attacks identified by the researchers work by raising the cost of consensus building in a democratic society. Your approach helps deal with the increased cost on an individual level, but it does not help prevent the attacks or counteract their effects on a societal level. i.e. if I can raise the cost of getting quality information from 2 cents to $200 for everybody, you can empower certain people by giving them $200, but you can't bring the price back down to what it was.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#62

Post by malvosenior »

johnchristopher wrote: post #52
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which do you think is more likely to develop students into citizens capable of independent thought: a) Sitting at a desk. Not allowed to talk unless called upon. Exactly following a schedule determined by authority figures. b) Being free to move about the room. Able to choose your activity with your peers.A constructivist or "discovery" model, where students learn concepts from working with materials, rather than by…

I am not downvoting you but I disagree. A friend of mine has two daughter in a Montessori like school. One of them has a young teacher, the other a more experienced one. One of them is severely lacking in basic arithmetic and grammar and the other one is striving. Anecdata but when I add my experience and feedback from acquaintances in teaching position I conclude that the style doesn't matter as much as the teacher.

> One of them is severely lacking in basic arithmetic and grammar

This describes like 80% of people who graduate from public high school. I think it's worth acknowledging that most people struggle with what a lot of us consider "the basics".

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#63

Post by antidesitter »

zackmorris wrote: post #28
rrggrr wrote: post #25

The only counter-measure that works against polluting the polity with influence operations is earnestly educating people to be critical consumers of information. Why? Because one cannot empower government to counter-message influence operations without risking an abuse of power. My son's middle school appears to be tackling this problem to some degree by teaching students to: (a) not accept 'facts' without multiple s…

For the reasons you gave: as a litmus test for whether a politician is a statesman or a shill, I look at whether he/she supports public education or not.

What exactly do you mean by "supports public education"?

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#64

Post by antidesitter »

Jedd wrote: post #40
seneca wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm reading this as you saying anyone who doesn't support public education is a shill. If that's the case, you believe that libertarians are shills, then? This strikes me as you essentially saying "anyone who doesn't think the way I do on this topic shouldn't be trusted".

I read it more as 'anyone who doesn't support public education isn't a person that should be setting policy for society'.

Really? How did you read it that way? Seems pretty clear the GP specifically used the term "shill".

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#65

Post by orf »

commandlinefan wrote: post #15
hammock wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They may be less vulnerable to attacks from outsiders, but they are much more vulnerable to attacks from their own government. It's similar to totalitarian governments Interesting that you say that about China, because that was exactly Bruce Schneier's conclusion about the United States: >Our research implies that insider attacks from within American politics can be more pernicious than attacks from other countries.…

> Without any evidence whatsoever, he said that Democrats were trying to steal the election through "FRAUD." Well, wait a minute - both of those races had already been called in favor of the Republican candidate on the night of the election until boxes and boxes of mysteriously Democrat-leaning ballots were suddenly found the following day... I think that constitutes evidence, even if it's not conclusive.

Evidence of a poorly managed election system split into tens of thousands of individual parts across 50 states in dire need of reform (but will never be, because one party benefits from the status quo), or evidence of a Democratic conspiracy to fraudulently seize power by creating 'mysterious' ballot boxes in the most hamfisted and public way possible?

Sure.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#66

Post by clarkmoody »

metamet wrote: post #45
seneca wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm reading this as you saying anyone who doesn't support public education is a shill. If that's the case, you believe that libertarians are shills, then? This strikes me as you essentially saying "anyone who doesn't think the way I do on this topic shouldn't be trusted".

> If that's the case, you believe that libertarians are shills, then? The libertarian argument against public education (pushed by Cato, etc) is that public schooling is worse than private school systems, therefore we should be not spending public money on education, but rather shuffle those resources into vouchers and other ways to fund the private organizations offering private education. They advocate for starving…

No, the proper libertarian argument is that we don't initiate violence against innocent people. In order to tax someone, you must ultimately threaten them with violence. Public schooling is paid for with taxes. Therefore, we oppose it on moral grounds as improper threats of aggression against the public.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#67

Post by clarkmoody »

zackmorris wrote: post #28
rrggrr wrote: post #25

The only counter-measure that works against polluting the polity with influence operations is earnestly educating people to be critical consumers of information. Why? Because one cannot empower government to counter-message influence operations without risking an abuse of power. My son's middle school appears to be tackling this problem to some degree by teaching students to: (a) not accept 'facts' without multiple s…

For the reasons you gave: as a litmus test for whether a politician is a statesman or a shill, I look at whether he/she supports public education or not.

Talk about a whiplash moment!

GP was talking about critical examination of evidence during the education process. Then you mention public education, as if that provides what GP meant.

How about a politician that makes the distinction between education and schooling? Let's start there.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#68

Post by excalibur »

lisper wrote: post #50
gambler wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good and important counter-measure, but not the only one. People also need better tools for analyzing and making sense of large quantities of information, especially as it evolves over time. Right now, all we have are search engines and excel spreadsheets, and it's clearly not enough. It's amazing how prophetic Neil Postman's criticism of computers turned out to be: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqxgCoHv_aE Essen…

Wow, that is one of the best long talks I've ever seen. Do you know if there's a transcript out there somewhere?

Not finding one. Any volunteers for Rule 35?

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#69

Post by clarkmoody »

matt4077 wrote: post #33
tareqak wrote: post #10

I'm glad that someone of Schneier's reputation and ability is taking this issue seriously enough to at least co-author a paper on it. I know that the focus of this forum is technology news and whatever hackers find interesting, and I know (and have seen here) that the more political a particular post is, the more inevitable it becomes for the discourse to devolve into something non-constructive and toxic. At the same…

I fear you will be disappointed... Large parts of the tech community seem to not just be blind to the consequences of their work, but to openly embrace and nurture the destruction of the fabric of society. This used to find voice in utopian visions of a sort of libertarian, meritocratic revival of democracy: bloggers replacing journalists, "makers", liquid democracy, etc. There are two successful examples of this spi…

As a Bitcoin guy, I'm going to chime in there.

> Yet it was always rooted in this sort of cynicism that distrusts institutions and the power of humans to have any positive impact with anything but the tools of physics and math: to wit, the endless conspiracy theories around the FED, the infatuation with Gold and land, etc.

Realism, not cynicism. The historical record shows that anyone with a printing press will abuse it to his own benefit. All central banks do this. Plenty of private banks prior to the Fed did it, albeit with government help via legal tender laws, sanctioned suspension of specie payments (breach of contract), and par laws.

Thus Bitcoin separates money and state and seeks to be a sound digital commodity.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#70

Post by msla »

seneca wrote: post #37
zackmorris wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the reasons you gave: as a litmus test for whether a politician is a statesman or a shill, I look at whether he/she supports public education or not.

I'm reading this as you saying anyone who doesn't support public education is a shill. If that's the case, you believe that libertarians are shills, then? This strikes me as you essentially saying "anyone who doesn't think the way I do on this topic shouldn't be trusted".

> If that's the case, you believe that libertarians are shills, then?

I'm sure some are.

I'm also sure some are honest people who believe things at odds with what we know about market failures.

Here's a market-oriented (that is, based on the idea of market economies) critique of Libertarianism:

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/22/repost-the-non-libertar...

It's founded in, ultimately, game theory, with a lot about coordination problems and defection.

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