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Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

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Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#61
post #57
post #54

EDIT: to people emailing me (thanks!), I am currently on PTO overseas so I will respond, but maybe not super timely. Also, we're looking for our first QA and our first DevOps role if non-SEs are reading... If you're willing to work in Texas, send me an email (check my profile). We absolutely do not mind if you have gaps. semi-OT: To all people in this thread who say there is no shortage of developers: if you know any…

I am just curious, why do you need to test somone's ability to find max of a list. Language designers have recognized this as a basic utility and incorporated them into the language. Is the hypothesis that - if someone cannot write a simple algo to find the max of a list then what other difficult tasks he/she can perform ? Even though in reality we all understand no one needs to write a max algorithm.

It's a fizz-buzz bozo filter. If you can't write a loop over a list, chances are you are a charlatan that can't provide any value as a programmer.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#62

False premise. There is no shortage of devs. That has been a complete fabrication, made up entirely by big tech companies, in a propaganda push to promote more and more people getting into CS. It's entirely so they can pay developers less.

I agree. There is zero shortage of developers. I just left Google search. There, all the Dev's are PhDs and will drop everything to fix a non user facing problem at midnight or 1am. They all answer their pagers about it. There is no shortage of Dev's ... but ... these companies are looking for H1B slaves who work 24/7 and 60h a week times 7y of indentured servitude. There certainly is a shortage of Uncle Tom's willing to work for the Simon Legree FAANGs. The FAANGs are the biggest whiner crybabies on Earth about it.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#63
post #57
post #54

EDIT: to people emailing me (thanks!), I am currently on PTO overseas so I will respond, but maybe not super timely. Also, we're looking for our first QA and our first DevOps role if non-SEs are reading... If you're willing to work in Texas, send me an email (check my profile). We absolutely do not mind if you have gaps. semi-OT: To all people in this thread who say there is no shortage of developers: if you know any…

I am just curious, why do you need to test somone's ability to find max of a list. Language designers have recognized this as a basic utility and incorporated them into the language. Is the hypothesis that - if someone cannot write a simple algo to find the max of a list then what other difficult tasks he/she can perform ? Even though in reality we all understand no one needs to write a max algorithm.

Yeah, I'd say the latter. Finding the max element in a list is an extremely straightforward thing to code; if someone can't do that, it's almost certain they're going to be lacking in a lot of other ways as well. Of course it's not the only thing you would check, but it would make for an easy early filter (which, unfortunately but conveniently, would probably weed out the majority of your resumes).

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#66
I run a mentoring organisation which I started because of my interest in teaching. I used to help the graduates find jobs that they liked. After a couple of years, I started a small services company of my own and started to hire mostly out of my own student pool. I'm very happy with the decision. I develop rapport with the students (and later employees).

A 4 month training program, while beneficial for the students, works as an extended interview for me. I get to teach them skills which I think are relevant and fix what I think are cracks in their learning. All in all, at the end, I get employees who have skills that I want and with whom I share a rapport.

The approach has scalability problems since I'm just one person but I see no reason why companies shouldn't formalise something like this and hone good talent rather than fish in the labour pool for it.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#67
post #57
post #54

EDIT: to people emailing me (thanks!), I am currently on PTO overseas so I will respond, but maybe not super timely. Also, we're looking for our first QA and our first DevOps role if non-SEs are reading... If you're willing to work in Texas, send me an email (check my profile). We absolutely do not mind if you have gaps. semi-OT: To all people in this thread who say there is no shortage of developers: if you know any…

I am just curious, why do you need to test somone's ability to find max of a list. Language designers have recognized this as a basic utility and incorporated them into the language. Is the hypothesis that - if someone cannot write a simple algo to find the max of a list then what other difficult tasks he/she can perform ? Even though in reality we all understand no one needs to write a max algorithm.

You don't need to write one but if you have only a little bit of coding skills you definitely should be able to whip one up if you have to. Same for fizzbuzz or maybe invent some simple sort algorithm.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#68
More and more I think it's because it's difficult for companies to identify the capacity to be successful at this type of work early on. Partly because it's actually difficult, and partly because companies are really bad at identifying skills as a rule.

Instead they resort to the simplistic. Senior developers have made it through several filters. They've proven they can do the work, they've done it at several companies, and they've survived in the role enough to be promoted a couple times. That's just signal that they're less likely to run into problems, and that there's less risk the hire won't work out.

So, companies are lazy. Not intentionally—but because they're literally squeezing every ounce of time and focus on the very complex and wildly difficult task of managing a company and staying solvent and productive and going in the right direction.

They shouldn't be—they should have room for training and developing a talent pipeline—but this is the real world, and most companies can't even do basic company things really well, so the prospect of also doing on-the-job training really well to de-risk the hiring of junior engineers seems pretty far out.

In addition, many hiring managers have learned the hard way what '5 years of experience' means, because they've had 5 years of experience themselves, and only on the 5th year of that figured out how to do their job in the way they now know it needs to be done.

It's not an arbitrary set of skills they know they need, but an experience working in an ecosystem in specific ways that they know are crucial. Experience is not necessarily just skills, but a sequence of realizations, hardships, events, and successes that teach you things you can only learn by going through them.

Hiring managers hiring for a Senior role and pointing to a checklist of technical skills are probably not being fully forthcoming—they're likely looking for someone who does not see their own value as a checklist of technical skills.

Not saying that's you necessarily, and they could certainly be wrong, but personally I've learned that when the team needs someone with 5 years of experience, it takes 5 years to develop it, and there are no shortcuts to gaining that experience. The one thing I've found that speeds it up is experience in smaller companies or starting your own business—you'll experience a lot more much faster.

That said, there are companies that truly invest in on-the-job training, and with a holistic business model centered around that as a core value, it can be successful. It takes a philosophy, though, that most businesses will never mature enough to reach, dare I say, especially tech businesses.

The one I know of is the Greyston Bakery in NY, which was started by a Zen monk named Bernie Glassman (who passed away a couple weeks ago, sadly). His book "Instructions to the Cook" is really interesting, and outlines how they made a policy of hiring anyone who wanted a job work very well. They now run the Center for Open Hiring that helps other companies do the same thing.

It would be pretty incredible to see a tech company embrace that kind of thing and really invest in hiring and development as a strategy. I'd almost imagine it as a merger of something like General Assembly with an actual product and long-term business. It would be interesting to see if the significantly greater investment would be worth it over the traditional model.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#69
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netflix. Common abbreviation for big tech companies in Finance.

Finance?? Those companies have little to do with finance--they're tech companies.

Maybe they meant that's the term used for those 5 tech companies in the finance industry?
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