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Life Sentence for British Student Draws Criticism for U.A.E

wsj.com

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Re: Life Sentence for British Student Draws Criticism for U.A.E

#61

Post by seanmcdirmid »

S_A_P wrote: post #7

Article is light on details other than to say he was carrying out “legitimate academic research into security policy following the Arab spring”. Let’s say that someone from say China came to the US to stake out airports and study the US’s airport security protocol. I’m not sure the outcome would be much different. Even if this was all totally above board it Seems a bit naive to think this isn’t something that you sho…

> Let’s say that someone from say China came to the US to stake out airports and study the US’s airport security protocol. I’m not sure the outcome would be much different.

If they did their observations within the law, I don't see what they could be obtained or convicted of.

Re: Life Sentence for British Student Draws Criticism for U.A.E

#62

Post by stupidcar »

c3534l wrote: post #36
stupidcar wrote: post #32

It’s absurd that a British citizen, or a citizen of any democratic county, is living and studying in a repressive, corrupt and violent regime like the United Arab Emirates. These countries and their kleptocratic Sheikhs throw wealth derived from oil and blood at western universities, and bribe their officials into setting up “campuses” in their states. Then they get upset when arriving students don’t conform to the a…

> The Cold War is over. Yet somehow western democracies are still clinging on to alliances with barbarous regimes like Saudi Arabia and UAE. That's because those in power are the moderate ones, who are able to keep the most extreme elements of Islamic fundamentalism at bay. You want to topple Saudi Arabia and UAE? Great, now it's run by ISIS. Sometimes you have to choose the lesser evil.

The governments of these countries are in no sense “moderate”, and it is absurd to suggest that the only choice they face is between their incumbent autocratic regimes and fundamentalism Islamic ones. Extremists both secular and religious have prospered in the Middle East precisely because western backing for unrepresentative regimes has snuffed out moderate and democratic opposition.

This geopolitical calculus might have made sense when there was a real danger of such countries being swallowed up into the Soviet Union’s sphere of influence. But it would be much better now to disengage as much as possible with the governments of countries like Saudi Arabia and the UAE.

Re: Life Sentence for British Student Draws Criticism for U.A.E

#63

Post by arsalanb »

ssijak wrote: post #45

True story : I went on a vacation in Dubai and Abu Dabhi with my wife. 1-2 days priot I sold my iphone to some random guy and brought that cash with me. I imedietly exchanged 100 euros in Dubai after I landed to have some of their currency for small things. I also exchanged larger amount in a hotel before paying for it and moving to a different hotel to explore another part of the emirate. Anyhow, one day later my ph…

So you got scammed on the internet. How is that relevant or have anything to do with Dubai/Abu Dhabi?

Re: Life Sentence for British Student Draws Criticism for U.A.E

#64

Post by robotrout »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #58
ssijak wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only US and NATO applied that logic to Lybia and Syria

They did for a long time.

Yep. It was easy for us to topple Libya, and we almost succeeded with Syria as well, if Russia hadn't stepped in. A secular government is easy to stir up the fundamentalists against, to use them as foot soldiers in your regime change operation.

They won't have as much luck with Iran, since it's government is so strongly aligned with the fundamentalists, the pool of willing cannon fodder will be smaller.

I hope, at some point, these illegal regime change operations that the US and other western countries have been involved in for so many decades, will eventually stop.

Re: Life Sentence for British Student Draws Criticism for U.A.E

#65

Post by frereubu »

Ar-Curunir wrote: post #50
frereubu wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that there are very unpleasant aspects of western democracies. But to say that, for example, the UK is as cruel and barbaric as Saudi Arabia is overheated rhetoric.

It wasn't very different 70ish years ago. I don't get why folks think that the West is a stellar beacon of freedom; it is quite possible for conditions to relapse to the period of the British Empire, for example.

You're looking for an argument that I don't want to have by taking what I said and twisting it to include historical aspects of those democracies when that clearly wasn't what was being talked about. I'm aware of the horrific histories of many Western democracies, including the UK (empire), Belgium (Congo), Germany (Holocaust) etc. The parent comment was comparing present-day nation states, which is overheated.

Re: Life Sentence for British Student Draws Criticism for U.A.E

#66

Post by danso »

mikekchar wrote: post #57
danso wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US to stake out airports and study the US’s airport security protocol. I’m not sure the outcome would be much different Could you point to a real-life example you have in mind, in which either (or both) the judicial process was so non-transparent, or the punishment so severe? I mean, the obvious situation that comes to mind is Gitmo, but I couldn't think of instances of Gitmo detainees who were legal immigrants or…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Elcom_Ltd . comes to mind. Of course the charges were ultimately dropped, but only on condition that Sklyarov testify against his employer. On the other hand this as a DMCA case, not espionage. The reaction was massively unbalanced. If you had a researcher who was deemed to be revealing state secrets, it seems fairly likely that the state would use whatever powers it had…

My knowledge about this case comes only from the Wikipedia link you provided, but were the consequences in that case any different than what a U.S. citizen would face? I agree that DMCA cases are problematic to say the least. But I don't think it is at all reasonable to conclude, "If that's the trouble a simple DMCA case gets you, imagine what you face for foreign espionage" -- because we don't really need to imagine the latter. In Sklyarov's case, and in actual espionage cases, we know the details of the charges and judicial proceedings, even if we think the punishment/indictments are out of whack.

We don't seem to really know anything about UAE's case at the present moment. From The Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/21/british-academ...

> However, Emirati press claimed Hedges had confessed to the charges against him and the case had been passed to the state security court. There is no independent confirmation of this claim. Hedges was taken to court in Abu Dhabi twice in October, with the case being adjourned both times.

Again, Gitmo notwithstanding, I can't recall a U.S. case being handle in this fashion:

> Tejada said that during the first six weeks he was interrogated without a lawyer or consular access, and held in “inhuman” conditions under which his mental health deteriorated. During this time he was allegedly made to sign a document in Arabic which it has now been disclosed was a confession statement. Hedges does not speak or read Arabic.

Re: Life Sentence for British Student Draws Criticism for U.A.E

#67

Post by fyfy18 »

Kaveren wrote: post #16

Surely even if he is a spy, the UK will eventually be able to negotiate his release? How many years could this take? UAE has a lot of revenue from tourism, I don't know how much of that is from the UK, but I assume that provides enough leverage to get something going. I just don't see a life sentence being a true life sentence for any citizen Westerner caught by a nation like the UAE.

UAE and UK are pretty must best friends. Historically they have strong ties from the days of the British empire (Britain was allied with most of the Gulf countries to secure trade routes to India), and even now there are very strong political, economic and royal ties to the country. Most of the Western expats living there are from the UK, and there are a lot of UK financial companies with offices there. Going the other way, London is the place to go for Emiratis that want to escape the summer heat. I'm sure there is a lot more going on behind the scenes to provoke this reaction.

Re: Life Sentence for British Student Draws Criticism for U.A.E

#68

Post by ap3 »

Cyph0n wrote: post #29
Latteland wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan is not going to torture him, keep him up without letting him sleep are they? They have the rule of law and generally treat people well. You can't seriously compare those countries, can you?

It’s definitely much better than KSA, but 23 days in police custody? Most people would break under the pressure alone - no torture necessary...

It all depends on the conditions, if you have access to an attorney and are in general safe situations

I would take that than say 1 day in a mexican prison run by the drug cartel

Re: Life Sentence for British Student Draws Criticism for U.A.E

#69

Post by __________ttttt »

justboxing wrote: post #17
__________ttttt wrote: post #8

Yet no word about a Scot being tortured and electrocuted, held in jail for a year. https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/2604512/jagtar-singh-j...

This was in India. What does it have to do with the U.A.E story???

No criticism for India. But there is for uae

Re: Life Sentence for British Student Draws Criticism for U.A.E

#70

Post by ap3 »

S_A_P wrote: post #7

Article is light on details other than to say he was carrying out “legitimate academic research into security policy following the Arab spring”. Let’s say that someone from say China came to the US to stake out airports and study the US’s airport security protocol. I’m not sure the outcome would be much different. Even if this was all totally above board it Seems a bit naive to think this isn’t something that you sho…

You went totally the other way with the China angle though.

For high profile spying you would get consular help and maybe a spy trade.

No way you would be brought up on made up charges. You also have to consider the free press and the pressure they can apply in the US vs elsewhere.

The UAE press (or KSA, China, etc) operates under much different constraints.

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