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NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

theguardian.com

61–70 of 477 posts

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#61
While looking for more information, I found this article [1] which gives more detail into the costs of the MTA compared to other cities. Regarding operator efficiency:

> The number of annual revenue car-miles per subway employee in New York was 14,000 in 2010. In Chicago this number is somewhere between 14,000 and 16,000 ... On Tokyo’s Metro, the comparable figure is about 18,500.

[1] https://ny.curbed.com/2017/10/13/16455880/new-york-subway-mt...

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Numbers may not tell the whole story, obviously: https://outline.com/KLsxf3

Agreed - I don't need numbers to tell me how unpleasant the daily experience of riding the subway in NYC has become. I was merely responding to someone else who brought up a numbers-based argument only to find out that they... apparently don't have any.

I don't have access to any numbers you don't. I've tried to describe the ways in which I think the numbers can be used to tell a misleading and unnecessarily apocalyptic story. If I've failed to make that case on the merits, then I'll have to live with that, but just for the record, the 20% figure I gave was plainly illustrative, not a quote of actual figures; your references to it demonstrate the power of the anchoring effect, but I'll happily clarify, again, that they were -- I think manifestly, but the communication failure is mine, if not -- randomly chosen to make a point, not culled from a stash of secret MTA data.

The mere fact that people from Rhode Island now believe that they won't be able to successfully use the subway to attend a concert is I think pretty strong evidence that the story has gotten away from us a bit. Nobody here, least of all me, wishes to downplay your commute.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#63

> Drastically cut service or increase fares There's another option: disband the MTA Union, the primary driver of operations costs. They have blocked technology and safety upgrades for decades to keep 'those darn computers and robots from taking jobs from poor workers just trying to make a living'.

Paying conductors a living wage isn't nearly as expensive to the agency (and the state, and we the taxpayers and riders) as mismanaged and corruptly nepotistic multi-billion dollar contracts for construction.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#64
post #38

CLOSE THE SUBWAY MIDNIGHT-5AM and fix it Like most other civilized societies who have a functioning and well-maintained metro system. That is really all there is to it!

That really hurts most a lot of poor people who work odd hours. Then suddenly they have to find a way home or two work that will be much more expensive and eat into their earnings. I'm not sure what the solution is, but "that's really all there is to it" will affect very negatively hundreds of thousands of people in NYC.

subsidized ridesharing?

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#65

> Drastically cut service or increase fares There's another option: disband the MTA Union, the primary driver of operations costs. They have blocked technology and safety upgrades for decades to keep 'those darn computers and robots from taking jobs from poor workers just trying to make a living'.

i think that's literally ones of the objectives of under-funding. then privatise. then monopoly rents for those that can own shares. while still under-investing - who cares about trains? just uber a private jet/helicopter.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#68
post #56

Over the summer The New Yorker had a story on the president of the NYC Transit Authority. Entitled Can Andy Byford Save The Subways[1]? I found it interesting. They had a rather optimistic take, but this article 4 months later makes me think its not going well. [1] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/07/09/can-andy-byfor...

60 Minutes also profiled Andy recently. They even show a machine (over 100 years old) to move train switches, by manually pulling antique levers. Scary to think how these things operate.

[1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mta-why-has-the-nyc-subway-gone...

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#69

> Drastically cut service or increase fares There's another option: disband the MTA Union, the primary driver of operations costs. They have blocked technology and safety upgrades for decades to keep 'those darn computers and robots from taking jobs from poor workers just trying to make a living'.

You have a source for any of that? It's one thing to say labor costs are a primary driver of costs. It's quite another so say Labor Union costs are the primary driver.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#70
post #23
post #7

“The subway service and the bus service has become unreliable enough for people to stop using it. If people aren’t using it, there’s less money, and they have to keep raising fares without delivering better service.” I was a daily rider of the DC metro for 8 years. This is exactly what happened there. Reliability plummeted, then ridership, and all the while major fare increases.

Can ridership in NYC really plummet? It's not like everybody there has a car that they can take to work.

This claim I found really confusing. The subway has been more crowded the last 5 years than I've ever seen it; that's an anecdote of course, but if you search "NYC subway crowding," you'll see the MTA has been claiming that the subway is more crowded than ever these days. Not sure how they explain that discrepancy.

As for the alternative options like Lyft and Uber they mentioned, those are only viable for privileged upper middle class commuters, so it really can't go that far to explain a claimed drop in ridership. And it's just crass to claim that there's a statistically measurable number of fare jumpers.

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