Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin • Hacker News Board

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#61

Post by andrewljohnson » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 6:56 PM UTC

There I was, sitting at the busy intersection of Sacramento and Ashby in Berkeley, when I saw two boys that couldn't have been more than 8-10 years old fly by on Bird Scooters. And I thought to myself, some kid is going to die.

And lots of people do die on these things: https://www.google.com/search?q=bird+scooters+deaths

These scooter companies suck, I wish they'd all go away. If they weren't all going for hypergrowth, they'd be less of a menace. I can see the boon for commuters on the last mile, but when I weight that against how they endanger children, encourage illegal usage of sidewalks, ruin pedestrian experiences, and don't provide helmets - I think the industry is in need of a reckoning.

They also totally wrecked the coastal street/"boardwalk" in San Diego. As a pedestrian, you're constantly looking over your shoulder for drunk idiots on scooters.

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#62

Post by clairity » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 6:56 PM UTC

ravenstine wrote: post #50

samcheng wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was clearly satire, but the idea is that only a certain subset of people are active enough to ride a bike. If e-scooters take off, that's a new/larger group of people traveling at 15mph. Infrastructure that was marginal for the small cohort of bicyclists will become obviously inadequate as people riding e-scooters, e-bikes, motor skateboards, etc. join them. As a bicyclist who wants more and safer bike lanes, I…

That's why it's aggravating to me how many cities insist on building everything at ground level. Cars? Ground level. Bikes and pedestrians? Ground level. Trains? Ground level, creating chaos at intersections. And now we have tons of scooters. Ground level, and causing chaos as people ride them without helmets and weave into car traffic. Adding more ground level transit isn't ever going to be the solution, and widenin…

i agree with you generally. let's put express lanes underground (for both cars and trains), since they're prioritizing getting places quickly over easy access.

but to be fair, that's more (sometimes much more) expensive. not only because of the digging required to put the lanes/tracks underground, but also the extra things like ventilation systems and pedestrian exits/corridors.

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#63

Post by cosmotron » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 6:58 PM UTC

qudat wrote: post #41

danans wrote: post #2

These e-scooters could be a really great way for many cities to decrease short-haul car dependency, but they really need to be off the sidewalks. A motor-propelled machine going 15 mph doesn't belong on the same surface as a baby stroller, a senior citizen, or a person with a disability. They belong in the bike lane (which should exist in the first place), and their speed should be capped in areas of dense foot traff…

I disagree. Bike lanes are extremely dangerous for cyclists and the current implementation of bike lanes in this country are really just big automobile lanes. It puts all the risk on the cyclist. I have had numerous friends get hit and run while riding bikes on bike lanes, most recently a friend died from it. I'll happily receive any citations for riding my bike or e-scooter on the sidewalk, and take full responsibil…

I don't think you're making a very compelling justification for bicycling on sidewalks.

Your statistic regarding UK pedestrians being killed/hit vs bicyclists being killed/hit isn't strong as it's probable that nowhere near as many bicyclists choose to ride on the sidewalk as compared to staying in bike lanes and roads. That is, if more bicyclists opted to ride on sidewalks, the incident rate would certainly increase.

Additionally, rationalizing this in terms of the risk towards the bicyclist just comes off as selfish: "I'm not comfortable with the risk I'm facing while bicycling on the roads, therefore I will put pedestrians at risk instead."

Perhaps instead of endangering pedestrians, something more constructive would be to engage politically to improve the situation (maybe you do this already, if so, awesome!).

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#64

Post by grandmczeb » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 6:58 PM UTC

repsilat wrote: post #52

komali2 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because cyclists are weird and it's okay to tell them to just ride in amongst trucks travelling 40mph. This is unsustainable. It's caused blowback from cyclists. "Fine, you want me to play in traffic, I'm going to start doing some dumb shit." I say this as a cyclist, I'm doing only 5 miles round trip but I do it every day. I see people blow red lights, weaving in and out of traffic, hopping onto the sidewalk, blast…

This might be one of those San Francisco problems. In most places a combination of law enforcement and peer shaming would discourage cyclists from breaking the law. Cracking down on law-breaking cyclists in SF would "send the wrong message" though, and the local culture trends more towards self-regard than self-awareness.

Cyclists constantly break the law in literally every city I’ve ever seen cyclists in. As long as they’re being safe, I don’t really blame them either - very few cities are designed with cyclists in mind and the letter of the law is usually hugely inconvenient.

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#65

Post by dangwu » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 6:58 PM UTC

andrewljohnson wrote: post #61

There I was, sitting at the busy intersection of Sacramento and Ashby in Berkeley, when I saw two boys that couldn't have been more than 8-10 years old fly by on Bird Scooters. And I thought to myself, some kid is going to die. And lots of people do die on these things: https://www.google.com/search?q=bird+scooters+deaths These scooter companies suck, I wish they'd all go away. If they weren't all going for hypergrow…

You have to be 18 years old with a driver's license to ride Bird scooters.

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#66

Post by andrewljohnson » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 6:59 PM UTC

dangwu wrote: post #65

andrewljohnson wrote: post #61

There I was, sitting at the busy intersection of Sacramento and Ashby in Berkeley, when I saw two boys that couldn't have been more than 8-10 years old fly by on Bird Scooters. And I thought to myself, some kid is going to die. And lots of people do die on these things: https://www.google.com/search?q=bird+scooters+deaths These scooter companies suck, I wish they'd all go away. If they weren't all going for hypergrow…

You have to be 18 years old with a driver's license to ride Bird scooters.

Theoretically.

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#67

Post by TylerE » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 6:59 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #30

notatoad wrote: post #22

>They belong in the bike lane (which should exist in the first place) the problem is the existence of bike lanes. If public officials start saying "scooters belong in the bike lane", then they have to confront the fact that their cities have no cohesive network of bike lanes that can actually support a real journey. This has been acceptable up until now, because cyclists are weird and it's okay to tell them to just r…

> because cyclists are weird and it's okay to tell them to just ride in amongst trucks travelling 40mph. This is unsustainable. It's caused blowback from cyclists. "Fine, you want me to play in traffic, I'm going to start doing some dumb shit." I say this as a cyclist, I'm doing only 5 miles round trip but I do it every day. I see people blow red lights, weaving in and out of traffic, hopping onto the sidewalk, blast…

Start doing dumb shit?

I've been seeing cyclist blow through stop signs for 30 years.

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#68

Post by stefan_ » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 7:01 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #57

repsilat wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be one of those San Francisco problems. In most places a combination of law enforcement and peer shaming would discourage cyclists from breaking the law. Cracking down on law-breaking cyclists in SF would "send the wrong message" though, and the local culture trends more towards self-regard than self-awareness.

I'm not sure I agree - I've never lived in an American city where cyclists didn't blow through reds. I hear it's the norm (though still illegal) in the UK as well.

Car drivers and cyclists blow reds at much the same rates. Only car drivers end up killing a significant number of people doing so, though.

Also: outgroup, confirmation bias.

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#69

Post by nexuslab » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 7:02 PM UTC

danans wrote: post #2

These e-scooters could be a really great way for many cities to decrease short-haul car dependency, but they really need to be off the sidewalks. A motor-propelled machine going 15 mph doesn't belong on the same surface as a baby stroller, a senior citizen, or a person with a disability. They belong in the bike lane (which should exist in the first place), and their speed should be capped in areas of dense foot traff…

For them to be off the sidewalks we need normal bike/scooter lanes. I do cycling and LA for example is pretty bad with bike lanes... sad!

Re: Ford Buying San Francisco-Area E-Scooter Startup Spin

#70

Post by wafflesraccoon » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 7:04 PM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #67

komali2 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because cyclists are weird and it's okay to tell them to just ride in amongst trucks travelling 40mph. This is unsustainable. It's caused blowback from cyclists. "Fine, you want me to play in traffic, I'm going to start doing some dumb shit." I say this as a cyclist, I'm doing only 5 miles round trip but I do it every day. I see people blow red lights, weaving in and out of traffic, hopping onto the sidewalk, blast…

Start doing dumb shit? I've been seeing cyclist blow through stop signs for 30 years.

Personal anecdote, cyclists blow through stop signs because the infrastructure isn't built for bicycles. Having to come to a stop and then start up on a bicycle is the hardest part and cyclists hate it.

Source: Commuting to work on a bicycle for years.