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Teenager jailed for refusing to hand over computer password

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Re: Teenager jailed for refusing to hand over computer password

#61

Post by dotBen »

Natsu wrote: post #54
dotBen wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hell I could just say I forgot the key I had the opportunity to attend a public gathering with Jack Straw during the public consultation of this bill (he was the MP who introduced this law). The issue of "what if you forget your password" is covered in the law, which basically says you have to know and keep control/ability to decrypt all encrypted media you own. Forgetting the password isn't a defense. (don't shoot t…

> The issue of "what if you forget your password" is covered in the law, which basically says you have to know and keep control/ability to decrypt all encrypted media you own. Heh. Would love to see them take that at face value. "But officer, I need this list of Blu-Ray disk keys. Otherwise, I can't decrypt all my movies the way I'm legally required to!" And that would explain why I heard of people emailing him encry…

In terms of the law, you don't own those blueray movies so it isn't the same.

The law is fuzzy on the issue of someone emailing you an encrypted archive you didnt have the password to.

Re: Teenager jailed for refusing to hand over computer password

#62

Post by sp4rki »

WildUtah wrote: post #57
sp4rki wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh no really I understand the implications and everything... but let's say you do forget the password, what can they do realistically? It seems highly immoral to throw you in jail because you forgot a password. Now let's say you're in the middle of a murder case, and it is about to be thrown away because of lack of evidence. So they ask you to provide the key to your encrypted drive, but you've forgotten the key... S…

I understand the implications and everything I don't think you do. I can always say "I forgot[...]" Then what happens? I go to jail for 4 months? No, you go to jail for a few months and then they take you back to court to see if your memory has improved. If you don't have the key or if you produce a key that doesn't reveal the data they wanted it to, you go back to jail for longer. If you can't produce the data the s…

I said realistically. From what I've seen this "lost my password" is in the US a non issue, and in the UK it warrants a few months of jail time (treated as a misdemeanor depending on the severity of the charges). In any case, it's almost impossible to prove intent in cases like this. It can't be treated as obstruction of justice because the drives were not encrypted after the fact. And intent can't be proven, so at max you get a misdemeanor charge, fines and a year in jail (using us law as a basis for time served).

Re: Teenager jailed for refusing to hand over computer password

#63

Post by Dylanlacey »

dot-sean wrote: post #43

I think the point here is that this Teenager thinks that the punishment for not handing over the password can't be as long as the punishment for proving a crime using the evidence stored on his harddrive. I didn't go to the link, but from what I remember, he's accused of possessing child porn. In US, it would be as easy as saying, I've been under so much duress because of all this, that I forgot what the key is and w…

And that's the magic phrase right there. Along with "Terrorism", "Drugs" and "Rape", "Child Porn" is a bogeyman which many people feel justifies a reduction in rights of a serious nature.

Are they right? Well, that's not something I'm going to speculate on, but I believe the judicial system will push as hard as people expect/will permit them too. If the encrypted data was stolen e-books, I doubt they'd be so very harsh.

I think it's bollucks, however. I think you should have no punishment for refusing to help convict yourself, regardless of what you may have done.

Re: Teenager jailed for refusing to hand over computer password

#64

Post by forensic »

eru wrote: post #46
smokeyj wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It can hide negative things, but it merely provides automation for knowing something you refuse to tell." Encryption doesn't hide negative things, people hide negative things. Almost like guns don't kill people, people do.

Bullets do.

Loss of blood does.

Re: Teenager jailed for refusing to hand over computer password

#65

Post by sp4rki »

ColinDabritz wrote: post #60
dotBen wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hell I could just say I forgot the key I had the opportunity to attend a public gathering with Jack Straw during the public consultation of this bill (he was the MP who introduced this law). The issue of "what if you forget your password" is covered in the law, which basically says you have to know and keep control/ability to decrypt all encrypted media you own. Forgetting the password isn't a defense. (don't shoot t…

Wow, that's an interesting point of view (as enshrined in law). For example, I own some DVDs or say Blu-Ray discs. Shouldn't the company provide me the key to decrypt them in case the police want to decrypt them? I suspect those companies wouldn't appreciate that. Also, since encrypted data, if done properly is very hard to distinguish between random noise, and people often use writes with random noise as a secure er…

It is a valid defense if you deleted the data before the investigation took place. If you did so with the intent of destroying evidence (of course, after the investigation starts) your obstructing justice which carries a maximum sentence of 20 years in the U S of A.

Re: Teenager jailed for refusing to hand over computer password

#66

Post by sp4rki »

aplusbi wrote: post #59
sp4rki wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the law sees it as anything other than what it is, a separation between what my data is and the fact that it belongs to me, in contrast to where it is stored, it will probably open a a big ass can of worms. Might as well change the name of the USA to North Korean States of America. My opinion: If I write a poem in a notebook (hard drive) using a cipher (encryption) for which only I know the key, the law is able to…

This is sort of why I think it may come down to your choice of algorithms. For example, let's say I buy a hypothetical external hard drive. This external drive has built in encryption, and I have to enter a password using a keypad on the drive before I can mount it. Should I be legally compelled to enter the combination?

Not in the USA. 5th amendment and all.

Re: Teenager jailed for refusing to hand over computer password

#67

Post by Natsu »

dotBen wrote: post #61
Natsu wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue of "what if you forget your password" is covered in the law, which basically says you have to know and keep control/ability to decrypt all encrypted media you own. Heh. Would love to see them take that at face value. "But officer, I need this list of Blu-Ray disk keys. Otherwise, I can't decrypt all my movies the way I'm legally required to!" And that would explain why I heard of people emailing him encry…

In terms of the law, you don't own those blueray movies so it isn't the same. The law is fuzzy on the issue of someone emailing you an encrypted archive you didnt have the password to.

> In terms of the law, you don't own those blueray movies so it isn't the same.

If that works, I might try telling them that the file they can't open is a DRM'd media file which I no longer have rights to and do not own.

For some people, that might even be true.

Re: Teenager jailed for refusing to hand over computer password

#68

Post by ax0n »

Natsu wrote: post #67
dotBen wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of the law, you don't own those blueray movies so it isn't the same. The law is fuzzy on the issue of someone emailing you an encrypted archive you didnt have the password to.

> In terms of the law, you don't own those blueray movies so it isn't the same. If that works, I might try telling them that the file they can't open is a DRM'd media file which I no longer have rights to and do not own. For some people, that might even be true.

Seriously. I love this kind of thinking! Hell, it might just work.

Re: Teenager jailed for refusing to hand over computer password

#70

Post by aplusbi »

sp4rki wrote: post #66
aplusbi wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is sort of why I think it may come down to your choice of algorithms. For example, let's say I buy a hypothetical external hard drive. This external drive has built in encryption, and I have to enter a password using a keypad on the drive before I can mount it. Should I be legally compelled to enter the combination?

Not in the USA. 5th amendment and all.

While I agree with you and believe that the 5th amendment does protect you in theory, this hasn't really been tested in US courts. The law may decide that encryption is a safe rather than a language. In that case the 5th amendment won't protect you. Hopefully that won't be the case.
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